Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 16 to 23 of 23

Thread: Emily Samuelson/Evan Bates Make Coaching Change to Shpilband and Zoueva

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Moreso than Davis and White or Virtue and Moir? All three teams have a youthful vibe, in comparison, say, to Delobel and Schoenfelder. (Or Anissina and Peizerat,or any combination of Grishuk,Platov, Usova and Zhulin. )

    About Delobel and Schoenfelder, you don't have to be all lovey-dovey all the time to be "man and woman." Both Davis and White and Virtue and Moir have a lot of "kids playing grown-up" in their performances, in my humble opinion.
    In my opinion, the physical age of the skaters matter less than the emotional maturity they project on ice. While V/M are physically young, what they project on ice, since when they first won the FD at the 2008 Worlds, demonstrated an emotional maturity that is way beyond their age. You can be 20-21 year old but come across as 25-26 year old for instance.

    Samuelson/Bates, in my view, has a critical problem with how they project themselves on ice. Keep in mind, this perception is fairly subjective but I do have almost 20 years of experience in Ice Dance as a fan, skater and official so I am offering my perspective as someone who has been deeply involved in the sport and who is keenly aware what ticks and what doesn't among judges. The issue with this team is him. In all my years watching Ice Dance, I have come to believe a successful Ice Dance team requires a very strong male partner. While woman is the focus most of the time, because there is a much larger pool of talented and interested female skaters compared to the much smaller number of male skaters, the female ice dancers are more or less comparable to each other at the top level. Though, the difference in the men is a lot more glaring. Not only does the man needs to be a strong skater, in Ice Dance, the man also needs to have a complementary charisma and emotional maturity that will allows him to accentuate the presence of his female partner. Evan Bates looks younger than his physical age when he is on the ice. That's a big problem. Someone like Scott Moir, who is only 22 and he was 20 when he and Tessa Virtue won the FD at the 2008 Worlds over much older teams, he projects a maturity this is not only suited to his style but also complements his partner. Their Umbrella FD in 2008 was age appropriate when they were only 20 and 18 respectively, but yet, their emotional maturity in that program makes people forget their physical age was only 20 and 18. At the same time, they weren't trying too hard and come across as unsuitable. Samuelson/Bates, mostly it's him not Emily, doesn't quite do that. They look like a pair of teenagers who happen to be very good skaters, technically but that's about it. Take their choice of OD and FD for instance. The American country music further accentuates their youth whereas most young teams of their age did everything to camouflage their age, V/M-> Flamenco, C/P->Flamenco, D/W->Indian folk with heavy makeup. Then their FD, Canto Della Terra, a beautiful piece of music that requires a lot of maturity to do it justice but unfortunately, it isn't there due to lack of chemistry between partners.

    Maybe a coach change will solve that problem. Even Frank Carroll recognized early on that Michelle Kwan missed that, hence she missed the World podium in 1995. What Samuelson/Bates need the most is that maturity transformation, to give the judges the impression that they are truly a Senior team, not just technically but in their presentation as well. That, in my opinion, will dictate whether they move up to the next level or remain stagnant & get passed by teams behind them like this year.

  2. #17
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,780
    Wallylutz - I agree the change is no guarantee..but I do think it's an awfully good bet.

    In regard to HM/C , I'm not sure they should have been placed behind Ralph and Hill ( who I like ,as well) at Canadians. HM/C had no problem placing well above them at 4CC , with not that much more training time under their belts. But apart from placements, the difference in Allie and Michael from the previous year in terms of polish and choreography was vast. I'm assuming that Z/S are fully capable of making a like transformation with S/B..and consider that S/B are at a more advanced stage of development to begin with.

    I think they can definitely bring Evan out of..his shell? the background? He has a sort of Dan Daley-ish vibe..I think they'll be able to bring it out a bit.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,124
    ^ Thanks for the thoughtful and interesting commnets.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    ...In all my years watching Ice Dance, I have come to believe a successful Ice Dance team requires a very strong male partner... Not only does the man needs to be a strong skater, in Ice Dance, the man also needs to have a complementary charisma and emotional maturity that will allows him to accentuate the presence of his female partner.
    I would imagine, given how many girls are interested in ice dancing compared to boys, that many ladies are just tickled to have any partner at all. I would be curious to know your opinion of Victor Kraatz, in terms of "complementary charisma." To me, he seemed to be the perfect frame for Shae-lynn, yet one hardly noticed he was there.

    [virtue and Moir's] Umbrella FD in 2008 was age appropriate when they were only 20 and 18 respectively, but yet, their emotional maturity in that program makes people forget their physical age was only 20 and 18. At the same time, they weren't trying too hard and come across as unsuitable.
    A remarkable program. I liked it better than their 2010 FD. The Mahler was a lot to skate up to.

    I have to admit I liked Samuelson and Bates' cowboy OD. Curly and Ado Annie do Oklahoma. Way better than than Belbin and Agosto's Green Acres, IMHO.

    Even Frank Carroll recognized early on that Michelle Kwan missed that, hence she missed the World podium in 1995.
    Well, Frank's solution was to cake on the make-up until Dick Button literally didn't recognize Michelle the first time she took the ice as Salome. If I remember correctly, Frank had to do some fancy talking to Michelle's parents to get them to go along.

    But I see what you mean. Emily and Evan do have a sort of boy and girl next door thing going on. (As opposed to Meryl and Charlie, who have a boy-and-girl-next-door- trying-out-for-the-lead-roles- in-the-high-school-production- of Phantom- of-the-Opera thing going on. My problem is that I have seen these teams grow up in local club shows for so long I can't see them as all sophisticated maturity now. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-29-2010 at 08:06 PM.

  4. #19
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,780
    On the other hand , the first I ever saw of them was their 2008/2009 OD...love at first sight...A sailor and his Rita Hayworth pin-up come to life. That's not so juvenile.

    Sometimes little things make a huge difference. Evan needs to wear his hair a little bit longer, so his ears don't stick out so noticeably ( See Michael Correno again, who managed to balance his nose with a bit of facial hair this year)...Go ahead ,laugh , but I know what I know.

    Evan's had no problem projecting character in their ODs..He just hasn't been given anything to project in their FDs.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I would be curious to know your opinion of Victor Kraatz, in terms of "complementary charisma." To me, he seemed to be the perfect frame for Shae-lynn, yet one hardly noticed he was there.
    In my view, Victor Kraatz wasn't a very suitable partner for Shae-Lynn Bourne, which is one of the reasons why they didn't have as much success as they would have wanted. He is the weaker skater of his team, both technically and as well as his ability to project on the ice. But this issue is not specific to Victor Kraatz alone, many male ice dancers do need to project more on the ice, despite being solid partners - it really takes that extra charisma and energy to make the difference between winning or not making it to the podium. Many very good male ice dancers have had this issue, currently, I think Charlie White falls into the category as well. I think Evan Lysacek would have made an excellent Ice Dancer because Evan understands how to project himself on the ice - not surprisingly, he is doing well on DWTS.


    Well, Frank's solution was to cake on the make-up until Dick Button literally didn't recognize Michelle the first time she took the ice as Salome. If I remember correctly, Frank had to do some fancy talking to Michelle's parents to get them to go along.
    Sometimes, it does take a drastic solution to fix an existing issue because there is no way around it. For the right or wrong reasons, figure skating as a sport values skaters who project emotional maturity on ice, most of the time. Parody can be fun, like the one Ryan Bradley did and the audience obviously likes that kind of fun program but it is hard to bring out the required sophistication that could convince the judges that such skater or program deserves to be taken seriously - which is not to say certain music or style is better than another, it's a little more complex than that. Therefore, V/M's choice of FD in 2010 was both a conservative but safe and wise decision.

    But I see what you mean. Emily and Evan do have a sort of boy and girl next door thing going on. (As opposed to Meryl and Charlie, who have a boy-and-girl-next-door- trying-out-for-the-lead-roles- in-the-high-school-production- of Phantom- of-the-Opera thing going on. My problem is that I have seen these teams grow up in local club shows for so long I can't see them as all sophisticated maturity now. )
    For Samuelson/Bates, I really believe this is what they need to move up. Looking at the teams ahead of them, both the Canadians and the Israelis opted to do programs that show off their sophistication, whether it's Schindler's List or interpretation of Orpheus and Eurydice and delivered strong emotional impact on the judging panel - that's what the Americans need to do - find a way to deliver emotional impact or else, they won't stand much a chance.

  6. #21
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    Wallylutz - I agree the change is no guarantee..but I do think it's an awfully good bet.
    At what cost, that's my question. I don't question the need to change, though I have been hammering hard on the $ consideration. Someone did a ballpark estimate of how much it costs to train with Zueva/Shpilband at the top level @ about $100,000 / year. Even a team like V/M had to rely heavily on their parents to subsidize their training and Tessa's dad is actually a very rich man - not every team has rich parents. My guess is S/B and their parents would need quite a bit of sacrifice to have them trained with Zueva/Shpilband.

    In regard to HM/C , I'm not sure they should have been placed behind Ralph and Hill ( who I like ,as well) at Canadians. HM/C had no problem placing well above them at 4CC , with not that much more training time under their belts. But apart from placements, the difference in Allie and Michael from the previous year in terms of polish and choreography was vast. I'm assuming that Z/S are fully capable of making a like transformation with S/B..and consider that S/B are at a more advanced stage of development to begin with.
    R/H very convincingly defeated HM/C in both OD and FD at the Canadian Nationals. If there was a question between 2nd and 3rd, there was no rumbling at all about 4th and 5th. 4CC was one competition, it hardly means anything and at this point, it's history and most likely won't be a reliable predictor of future success. The expected elimination of CD in Senior Ice Dance will likely favor R/H as CD is definitely their weakest link, where they placed 7th at the Canadian Nationals but moved up dramatically to 4th after OD and FD.

    I think they can definitely bring Evan out of..his shell? the background? He has a sort of Dan Daley-ish vibe..I think they'll be able to bring it out a bit.
    For their sake, I hope that's the case. I look forward to seeing what kind of magic Zueva/Shpilband can do to this young team.

  7. #22
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    I'm more curious about the fact that now the top four American teams are all under the same coaching team.

  8. #23
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,780
    It does make for a strange situation at US nationals, doesn't it ? And while I do think that variety is a good thing, if there was ever a coaching team that could manage to give those teams distinct ,competitive programs it's Z/S .

    Gee, that $cost$ is pretty phenomenal , but what is S/B's training costing them now ?

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •