Emily Samuelson/Evan Bates Make Coaching Change to Shpilband and Zoueva | Golden Skate

Emily Samuelson/Evan Bates Make Coaching Change to Shpilband and Zoueva

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
I like it ! I've felt S/B suffered from a weakness in their FD choreography for the last couple of years. I expect this will change , now.:thumbsup:
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This is likely a very expensive move on the part of Samuelson/Bates. Shpilband and Zoueva are not cheap at all, especially after the Olympics when their teams now occupy the #1 and #2 spots of the Olympic and World podium. My guess is S/B feels this move is necessary because they have become more or less stagnant in the last two years and being passed by the #2 Canadian team of Crone/Poirier at Worlds must worry them. They haven't really moved up compared to the 2009 season and in fact, except the Olympic Games, their 2010 season has been quite disappointing. The Worlds in Torino wasn't that much better considering 3 top teams were absent compared to Vancouver, 4 if you count K/N.

Would this move work? I think it's a big gamble. If the 2011 season doesn't produce the desired results, this expensive move may prove to be too costly. There are many other teams who will be pressuring them from behind, in addition to the teams ahead of them that they will try to beat. With B/A's retirement, this means the top two US Ice Dance teams will be coached by the same coaches but will Shpilband and Zoueva be able to work the same magic on them as they do with D/W and V/M? If I were S/B, I'd think a change is necessary but whether the high expense/cost involved is justified or not is difficult to say.
 

cornell08

Final Flight
Joined
May 10, 2009
This makes me think V/M aren't going to compete competitively for at least this upcoming year as that rink is really getting crowded (not that it wasn't before). I want to say that with Shpilband and Zoueva, Evan and Emily will be able to beat D/W sometime in the not-so-distant future. Interesting that Zoueva's programs really rise above the competition when there's some sort of romantic theme-- something D/W (and C/Z) cannot pull off-- naturally, at least-- for their lives...but even though Evan and Emily are just friends, they are pretty talented at emoting the romantic vibe and I see this working for them like it did for V/M. I see great Zoueva programs for Evan & Emily this year! Especially looking forward to a FD that isn't cheesy :)
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This makes me think V/M aren't going to compete competitively for at least this upcoming year.

Sorry, you lost me. What does that have anything to do with whatever decision V/M will make? :confused:

I want to say that with Shpilband and Zoueva, Evan and Emily will be able to beat D/W sometime in the not-so-distant future.

That is highly unlikely. Being coached by S/Z hardly guarantees specific results. The Shibutani were also coached by S/Z but ended up 5th at the Junior Worlds despite being the favorite for Gold. Same goes for the #5 Canadian team. Coach is important but the skaters themselves matter even more. Personally, I don't see in S/B enough physical attractiveness or maturity or unique abilities on ice that make them special enough to sustain a rocket rise to the top and they haven't, which is why they have been stagnant. What they need the most right now is to become a team composed of a man and a woman, not a boy and a girl.

but even though Evan and Emily are just friends like D/W are, they are pretty talented at emoting the romantic vibe. I see great Zoueva programs for Evan & Emily this year! Especially looking forward to a FD that isn't cheesy :)

They look like a very young team of big boy and a big girl. In Ice Dance, that generally means judges won't take you seriously.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Havn't Evan and Emily trained at that rink the past years? I thought they were actually working with Shipilband/Zoueva already. This is a great move for them, since I think they are a beautiful tram to watch. This does seem to hint that Virtue and Moir won't be returning, i really hope not though. They are so young and so much more to accomplish that cannot be measured in medals alone.
 

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Havn't Evan and Emily trained at that rink the past years? I thought they were actually working with Shipilband/Zoueva already. This is a great move for them, since I think they are a beautiful tram to watch. This does seem to hint that Virtue and Moir won't be returning, i really hope not though. They are so young and so much more to accomplish that cannot be measured in medals alone.

OT.. but http://twitter.com/SkateCanadaCEO :love::love:

now crossing my fingers for Yuna..
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Suggesting that they will beat Davis and White just because they moved to their coach is kind of ridiculous imo. It's along the same lines as saying Volosozhar and Trankov will win worlds next year, or Bobrova and Soloviev will. Such statements I've been hearing are all rather farfetched.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This does seem to hint that Virtue and Moir won't be returning.

:confused: The rink is not big enough to accomodate one more team? Or that S/Z only accepts S/B because there is some sort of opening? :unsure: Sometimes, I do think some skating fans are way into tea leaf reading, perhaps a little too much. If Mao Asada is going to train with Brian Orser, yes, we can probably infer that Yu-Na Kim is going to retire because the two are close competitors. But S/B are not even on V/M's radar yet. It's a little too far-fetch at this point.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
They look like a very young team of big boy and a big girl....

Moreso than Davis and White or Virtue and Moir? All three teams have a youthful vibe, in comparison, say, to Delobel and Schoenfelder. (Or Anissina and Peizerat,or any combination of Grishuk,Platov, Usova and Zhulin. :) )

About Delobel and Schoenfelder, you don't have to be all lovey-dovey all the time to be "man and woman." Both Davis and White and Virtue and Moir have a lot of "kids playing grown-up" in their performances, in my humble opinion.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Yay for Virtue and Moir's decision to
compete. I thought they would, but this is a relief to hear.
 

cornell08

Final Flight
Joined
May 10, 2009
Suggesting that they will beat Davis and White just because they moved to their coach is kind of ridiculous imo. It's along the same lines as saying Volosozhar and Trankov will win worlds next year, or Bobrova and Soloviev will. Such statements I've been hearing are all rather farfetched.

"Not so distant future" as in within 2 years. I think thats quite doable.

Usually I wouldn't be in the camp that gets excited that a coaching change means a skater or team will skyrocket-- but S/B have alot of good qualities that just haven't been capitalized with the programs they've been given. Their FD this year was straight out of a Chinese pair team's exhibition and I don't mean that in a good way. Zoueva creates mesmerizing programs and this is something that can be seen immediately, which is why I predict much better results for them this year. S/B are among the best in skating skills, extension and toe point-- they just need coaches who can highlight their good qualities and not mask them in last-decade type programs. They have no intrinsic technique issues, and can be the total package with the right team of coaches. Its not like they've been placing the way they have because they've skated easy programs or skated with flaws-- the programs have just been very blah-choreography and music wise. Here's to the end of elevator music programs for S/B! :agree:
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Being Canadian , I'd like to point to Allie Hann-McCurdy and Michael Correno as an example, though not everyone here will be so familiar with them . Their improvement since going to Z/S was practically instantaneous, and since they were with them for such a short time, a great deal of their success this year has to be credited to their programs , which were utterly charming and really suited to them. It really makes me excited to see what S/B could have in store for us next year.:love:

If I were Lane& Razgulajevs (sp?), I'd be jumping right to it to get Crone & Poirier the costumes and presentation skills they need and be working Vanessa's shoulders and upper back like mad in the off-season.:laugh: S/B already have it over them in presentation and costumes and I can't imagine either of those will suffer under Z/S . Technically, they've always been very close , so to me ,it all comes down to S/B solving their FD dilemmas , and C/P the above polishing. The race is on.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Being Canadian , I'd like to point to Allie Hann-McCurdy and Michael Correno as an example, though not everyone here will be so familiar with them . Their improvement since going to Z/S was practically instantaneous, and since they were with them for such a short time, a great deal of their success this year has to be credited to their programs , which were utterly charming and really suited to them. It really makes me excited to see what S/B could have in store for us next year.:love:

If I were Lane& Razgulajevs (sp?), I'd be jumping right to it to get Crone & Poirier the costumes and presentation skills they need and be working Vanessa's shoulders and upper back like mad in the off-season.:laugh: S/B already have it over them in presentation and costumes and I can't imagine either of those will suffer under Z/S . Technically, they've always been very close , so to me ,it all comes down to S/B solving their FD dilemmas , and C/P the above polishing. The race is on.

Hann-McCurdy/Correno finished 5th at the Canadian Nationals, behind a team who just rose up from the junior rank this year. Not sure this is what I would call a breakthrough considering the Canadian Ice Dance field is getting very crowded with no retirements expected in any of the top teams, as opposed to two retirements among the Top 4 in the U.S.

The fight to make the Canadian World team in Ice Dance would be intense next year, even with 3 spots. Virtue/Moir have their spot reserved being Olympic and World Champions, which is about the only sure thing at this point. The #2 to #5 teams will have to prove themselves on the GP circuit as their international results will have quite an impact on how they would be perceived when the Canadian Nationals take place.

This is what I mean when I said going to Zueva and Shpilband by no means guarantee anykind of results even though it is obviously very expensive. Samuelson/Bates may not have to worry too much nationally because the team ahead and behind them just retired and they look on track to inherit the the spot as the #2 U.S. team. But that could give a false sense of comfort while your competitors, the Russians and Canadians are in fight of their lives at home trying to just to get to the Worlds. Suffice to say, I am skeptical as to how much Zueva/Shpilband can do to transform this team and I continue to question whether the results will justify the higher expenses/sacrifice that is expected.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Moreso than Davis and White or Virtue and Moir? All three teams have a youthful vibe, in comparison, say, to Delobel and Schoenfelder. (Or Anissina and Peizerat,or any combination of Grishuk,Platov, Usova and Zhulin. :) )

About Delobel and Schoenfelder, you don't have to be all lovey-dovey all the time to be "man and woman." Both Davis and White and Virtue and Moir have a lot of "kids playing grown-up" in their performances, in my humble opinion.

In my opinion, the physical age of the skaters matter less than the emotional maturity they project on ice. While V/M are physically young, what they project on ice, since when they first won the FD at the 2008 Worlds, demonstrated an emotional maturity that is way beyond their age. You can be 20-21 year old but come across as 25-26 year old for instance.

Samuelson/Bates, in my view, has a critical problem with how they project themselves on ice. Keep in mind, this perception is fairly subjective but I do have almost 20 years of experience in Ice Dance as a fan, skater and official so I am offering my perspective as someone who has been deeply involved in the sport and who is keenly aware what ticks and what doesn't among judges. The issue with this team is him. In all my years watching Ice Dance, I have come to believe a successful Ice Dance team requires a very strong male partner. While woman is the focus most of the time, because there is a much larger pool of talented and interested female skaters compared to the much smaller number of male skaters, the female ice dancers are more or less comparable to each other at the top level. Though, the difference in the men is a lot more glaring. Not only does the man needs to be a strong skater, in Ice Dance, the man also needs to have a complementary charisma and emotional maturity that will allows him to accentuate the presence of his female partner. Evan Bates looks younger than his physical age when he is on the ice. That's a big problem. Someone like Scott Moir, who is only 22 and he was 20 when he and Tessa Virtue won the FD at the 2008 Worlds over much older teams, he projects a maturity this is not only suited to his style but also complements his partner. Their Umbrella FD in 2008 was age appropriate when they were only 20 and 18 respectively, but yet, their emotional maturity in that program makes people forget their physical age was only 20 and 18. At the same time, they weren't trying too hard and come across as unsuitable. Samuelson/Bates, mostly it's him not Emily, doesn't quite do that. They look like a pair of teenagers who happen to be very good skaters, technically but that's about it. Take their choice of OD and FD for instance. The American country music further accentuates their youth whereas most young teams of their age did everything to camouflage their age, V/M-> Flamenco, C/P->Flamenco, D/W->Indian folk with heavy makeup. Then their FD, Canto Della Terra, a beautiful piece of music that requires a lot of maturity to do it justice but unfortunately, it isn't there due to lack of chemistry between partners.

Maybe a coach change will solve that problem. Even Frank Carroll recognized early on that Michelle Kwan missed that, hence she missed the World podium in 1995. What Samuelson/Bates need the most is that maturity transformation, to give the judges the impression that they are truly a Senior team, not just technically but in their presentation as well. That, in my opinion, will dictate whether they move up to the next level or remain stagnant & get passed by teams behind them like this year.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Wallylutz - I agree the change is no guarantee..but I do think it's an awfully good bet.

In regard to HM/C , I'm not sure they should have been placed behind Ralph and Hill ( who I like ,as well) at Canadians. HM/C had no problem placing well above them at 4CC , with not that much more training time under their belts. But apart from placements, the difference in Allie and Michael from the previous year in terms of polish and choreography was vast. I'm assuming that Z/S are fully capable of making a like transformation with S/B..and consider that S/B are at a more advanced stage of development to begin with.

I think they can definitely bring Evan out of..his shell? the background? He has a sort of Dan Daley-ish vibe..I think they'll be able to bring it out a bit.:biggrin:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Thanks for the thoughtful and interesting commnets.

...In all my years watching Ice Dance, I have come to believe a successful Ice Dance team requires a very strong male partner... Not only does the man needs to be a strong skater, in Ice Dance, the man also needs to have a complementary charisma and emotional maturity that will allows him to accentuate the presence of his female partner.

I would imagine, given how many girls are interested in ice dancing compared to boys, that many ladies are just tickled to have any partner at all. I would be curious to know your opinion of Victor Kraatz, in terms of "complementary charisma." To me, he seemed to be the perfect frame for Shae-lynn, yet one hardly noticed he was there.

[virtue and Moir's] Umbrella FD in 2008 was age appropriate when they were only 20 and 18 respectively, but yet, their emotional maturity in that program makes people forget their physical age was only 20 and 18. At the same time, they weren't trying too hard and come across as unsuitable.

A remarkable program. I liked it better than their 2010 FD. The Mahler was a lot to skate up to.

I have to admit I liked Samuelson and Bates' cowboy OD. Curly and Ado Annie do Oklahoma. :rock: Way better than than Belbin and Agosto's Green Acres, IMHO.

Even Frank Carroll recognized early on that Michelle Kwan missed that, hence she missed the World podium in 1995.

Well, Frank's solution was to cake on the make-up until Dick Button literally didn't recognize Michelle the first time she took the ice as Salome. If I remember correctly, Frank had to do some fancy talking to Michelle's parents to get them to go along. :laugh:

But I see what you mean. Emily and Evan do have a sort of boy and girl next door thing going on. (As opposed to Meryl and Charlie, who have a boy-and-girl-next-door- trying-out-for-the-lead-roles- in-the-high-school-production- of Phantom- of-the-Opera thing going on. My problem is that I have seen these teams grow up in local club shows for so long I can't see them as all sophisticated maturity now. :cool: )
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:laugh::laugh: On the other hand , the first I ever saw of them was their 2008/2009 OD...:love:love at first sight...A sailor and his Rita Hayworth pin-up come to life. That's not so juvenile.

Sometimes little things make a huge difference. Evan needs to wear his hair a little bit longer, so his ears don't stick out so noticeably;) ( See Michael Correno again, who managed to balance his nose with a bit of facial hair this year)...Go ahead ,laugh , but I know what I know.

Evan's had no problem projecting character in their ODs..He just hasn't been given anything to project in their FDs.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I would be curious to know your opinion of Victor Kraatz, in terms of "complementary charisma." To me, he seemed to be the perfect frame for Shae-lynn, yet one hardly noticed he was there.

In my view, Victor Kraatz wasn't a very suitable partner for Shae-Lynn Bourne, which is one of the reasons why they didn't have as much success as they would have wanted. He is the weaker skater of his team, both technically and as well as his ability to project on the ice. But this issue is not specific to Victor Kraatz alone, many male ice dancers do need to project more on the ice, despite being solid partners - it really takes that extra charisma and energy to make the difference between winning or not making it to the podium. Many very good male ice dancers have had this issue, currently, I think Charlie White falls into the category as well. I think Evan Lysacek would have made an excellent Ice Dancer because Evan understands how to project himself on the ice - not surprisingly, he is doing well on DWTS. :)


Well, Frank's solution was to cake on the make-up until Dick Button literally didn't recognize Michelle the first time she took the ice as Salome. If I remember correctly, Frank had to do some fancy talking to Michelle's parents to get them to go along. :laugh:

Sometimes, it does take a drastic solution to fix an existing issue because there is no way around it. For the right or wrong reasons, figure skating as a sport values skaters who project emotional maturity on ice, most of the time. Parody can be fun, like the one Ryan Bradley did and the audience obviously likes that kind of fun program but it is hard to bring out the required sophistication that could convince the judges that such skater or program deserves to be taken seriously - which is not to say certain music or style is better than another, it's a little more complex than that. Therefore, V/M's choice of FD in 2010 was both a conservative but safe and wise decision.

But I see what you mean. Emily and Evan do have a sort of boy and girl next door thing going on. (As opposed to Meryl and Charlie, who have a boy-and-girl-next-door- trying-out-for-the-lead-roles- in-the-high-school-production- of Phantom- of-the-Opera thing going on. My problem is that I have seen these teams grow up in local club shows for so long I can't see them as all sophisticated maturity now. :cool: )

For Samuelson/Bates, I really believe this is what they need to move up. Looking at the teams ahead of them, both the Canadians and the Israelis opted to do programs that show off their sophistication, whether it's Schindler's List or interpretation of Orpheus and Eurydice and delivered strong emotional impact on the judging panel - that's what the Americans need to do - find a way to deliver emotional impact or else, they won't stand much a chance.
 
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