Canadian Ice Dance 2010-2011..Yikes!

[colleen o'neill]

This subject came up sort of tangentially on the Samuelson/Bates thread , so I wondered if anyone wanted to kick it around a bit? This could be one nail-biter of a season.

Tessa and Scott will of course be a shoo-in for No.1..but after that..?

Crone / Poirier are by no means safely ahead of Weaver /Poje. Ralph / Hill may have been fatally passed by Hann-McCurdy / Correno at 4CC. There could be other players too...and although Paul / Islam are probably staying at the Junior level , everyone knows they're coming

Whoooeee! Storm's a-brewin'...

Plus , dare I mention skating politics ? Are we sure that C/P fully deserved to be placed above W/P the last couple of years , or that R/H deserved to stay ahead of HM/C in 2010?

What do these couples need to be doing to improve or protect their placements ? ( I have some ideas , but my two typing fingers are starting to hurt, so someone else go first, if you like.)

[dorispulaski]

I presume that both Ralph & Hill and Paul & Islam both could stay junior for another season.

(The girl cannot turn 19 before July, the boy cannot turn 21 to be juniors.)

I would not be surprised to see P/I go to seniors. The Russians will be strong in juniors again this year, and the Shibs will still be juniors. P/I have only one more year of junior eligibility and getting higher than 2nd would be a real crap shoot.

I think R/H intended to be senior, but I think they should stay in juniors. This year is going to be the year that crazy golden waltz based OD is going to be introduced in seniors, and I don't think it's a good fit for R/H who are always weak in CD segments. And they just got passed by both HM/C and P/I. It's time to regroup.

ETA: They didn't get one of the top 24 scores of the year, so perhaps only one?

I agree it will be a really close business between W/P and C/P. However, Skate Canada seems to have put all their marbles for post V/M in the C/P basket. W/P need to start the season in tip top shape so that their GP scores are significantly ahead of C/P's.

H-M/C moved to Shpilband/Zoueva last year and improved a lot- It will be interesting to see how much they improve by fall. Because of their finish at 4CC's, I believe they are eligible for GP events.

[colleen o'neill]

Thanks, Doris, I was forgetting that R/H could stay at Junior..Now I'm really hoping that P/I do move up to Senior. I don't know what to hope for R/H , they're in a tough spot. I don't think P/I will have much of a problem looking senior. I think they'll have a much easier transition than R/H, or even C/P .They have enormous poise, much in the way V/M did, even as juniors.( Though ,of course, they're not as technically advanced as V/M were )

C/P and R/H have some of the same problems, to my eyes, which makes me worry about a coaching weakness..not so much in skating technique, but in matters of style. Both girls need to keep their shoulders down and need some work on their upper backs. I don't know if there is a ballet instructor ( or something similar) attached to their coaching team, but there should be. Costuming seems to be an ever present problem . It took all season to get Vanessa looking 'alright' and still they had some fussy detail on her shoulder in the FD... I was gnashing my teeth all season.

I'm completely with you on the suspicion that SkateCanada put their eggs in the C/P basket ,or would that be in their coaches' basket considering the R/H , HM/C battle at Canadians ? If so, I don't think Lane & Razgulaijevs can rest on their laurels..not if HM/C have continued to improve at the same pace , not with P/I moving up with the type of programs they had this year. Not with Shae-Lynn getting the recognition for her choreography she enjoyed this year and her move to share coaching with K/C. I'm sure that whole team knows they'll have to come on like gangbusters and will be ready .

I don't really have anything much against L/R as coaches, they've had good results, technically. I just feel they may have a bit of a blind spot and that they've gotten away with it at the national level , because there wasn't a lot of direct competition and people were willing to continue putting eggs in their basket. From a spectator's standpoint, I hope they recognize it and do something about it right quick. Otherwise I think they're in danger of being overtaken on all fronts.

Edit : I don't mean that to sound like a full-blown conspiracy theory, and I wasn't really unhappy with the placements this year. But it was very close in places. I could see an improvement in HM/C between Nationals and 4CC .If they continue to thrive under Z/S's tutelage (and why wouldn't they?), and R/H continue to have the same shortcomings in spite of their considerable strengths (which would be a shame ) R/H could be in serious trouble. I think they might have been fatally passed at least for a year or two, considering that 4CC was an international judging panel , and it was a three placement difference. Unless and until the judging system becomes entirely fair, that 's the kind of thing that can stick in judges minds...

[dorispulaski]

Fatally passed?

I wasn't the one that said this, but if the judging is fair, there is no such thing as "fatally passed," and yet teams often retire because of their perception that they have gone about as far as they can go. And the way a team that has been slotted in nationally often causes a reevaluation of their place is by exceptional performances in the eyes of international judges.

For the sake of this sport, I hope we can cut down on conspiracy theories unless you have some evidence to support such claim, it really damages the credibility of this sport unnecessarily.

Sports forums of all types thrive on conspiracy theories. I don't think we damage the sport particularly by discussing them.

Considering they didn't even do the Junior Worlds this year, that's highly doubtful.

I didn't say that I thought they would stay as juniors. I said that I thought they would do well to stay as juniors. I also doubt that they will take this advice. However, they certainly would qualify for two JGP spots, but as they did not medal at JGPF, and did not attend Jr Worlds, they are likely to get no more than one opportunity at a GP slot, and that would likely have to come via an invitation to skate at Skate Canada.

Here's the communication with the seeding information:

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1446

R/H didn't make the top 24 total scores of the year.

Where did P/I compete against R/H in the 2009-2010 season, let alone passed? P/I didn't even make it to the JGP Final whereas R/H did. R/H is still ranked higher than HM/C nationally and convincingly so, they were the ones who passed HM/C this year, not the other way around. Granted, HM/C did beat them later at the 4CC, similar things have happened to V/M when they won the 2004 Junior Nationals but yet beaten by the older national silver medalists at the Junior Worlds. I think National results are more relevant in Ice Dance since international results can be all over the place, especially on the junior circuit.

The rules of 2004 were vastly different.

R/H had problems when they hit one of the harder technical callers at 4CC's (over 12 point difference, AFAIR. ) I didn't comment on whether P/I had passed R/H fatally; colleen did. However, P/I placed better against the same cast of skaters at Jr Worlds than R/H did at JGPF.

At 4CC's, HM/C finished 2nd, R/H 6th and convincingly so at 4CC's. If Skate Canada is not perceiving the difference, they should think about it.

As to whether 4CC's was badly judged, consider that last year's Jr World Champions, Chock & Zuerlein, coached by the same coaches as HM/C, finished 5th. HM/C skated a heck of a competition at 4C's. It is yet to be seen whether they can build on this success.

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/pbsdto.htm

Also, I do not believe a resolution has been agreed yet re: what to do with the CD and OD next year. As it stands, the OD is set to be rhythm based on the 1950's, 60's and 70's. But that could be changed depending on what happens to CD. Several proposals have been floated but nothing concrete as far as I am concerned, may I ask where you heard about an OD based on the Golden Waltz?

The proposal was discussed at Golden Skate
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...OD-May-Be-Dead

It's discussed here in more detail than it has been discussed at Golden Skate:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...82&postcount=1

The CD/OD hybrid that has been proposed is based on the Golden Waltz for Seniors and on the Viennese Waltz for juniors. Parents of junior dancers express shock that it is being extended to juniors this year if it passes, as juniors must have their completed programs ready earlier than seniors.

Expectations are that Gorshkov and the technical committee have the votes for this proposal (which by the way, I don't like and don't endorse).

[colleen o'neill]

Yes, it was me...( 'scusi)
I said R/H might have been fatally passed by HM/C at 4C. But I didn't mean I thought they were finished... just in terms of protecting their No.4 position nationally..for the reasons doris has laid out better than I could.

I'm a booster for all these teams ,but I see R/H as being in the most difficult position.

[blue_idealist]

It will be an interesting battle between Crone and Poirier and Weaver and Poje. I personally prefer Weaver and Poje, but it seems like the judges have a slight preference for Crone and Poirier. Oh yeah, I forgot that Canada has three spots for dance next year. That's awesome, if Weaver and Poje place third, and they likely won't place lower than that, they can go to worlds! I like Hann McCurdy and Coreno. I'm glad to see them move up at Nationals again this past season. They're both so cute, haha, it's funny to call two grown people cute but they just are. lol. I'm really indifferent to Ralph and Hill and I've never seen Paul and Islam.

[wallylutz]

Ralph / Hill may have been fatally passed by Hann-McCurdy / Correno at 4CC.

Fatally passed?

Plus , dare I mention skating politics ? Are we sure that C/P fully deserved to be placed above W/P the last couple of years , or that R/H deserved to stay ahead of HM/C in 2010?

Not sure where you get the idea that any of these placements were political. From what I can tell, it was fairly judged, notwithstanding the glaring error on the part of Vanessa Crone in the FD. The "politics" theory doesn't make sense because if the panel had wanted to prop up C/P over W/P, they would have done it at the OD when both teams were clean as opposed to give the win to W/P there and then punish them at the FD when C/P actually fell, that made no sense. For the sake of this sport, I hope we can cut down on conspiracy theories unless you have some evidence to support such claim, it really damages the credibility of this sport unnecessarily.

I think R/H intended to be senior, but I think they should stay in juniors.

Considering they didn't even do the Junior Worlds this year, that's highly doubtful.

This year is going to be the year that crazy golden waltz based OD is going to be introduced in seniors, and I don't think it's a good fit for R/H who are always weak in CD segments. And they just got passed by both HM/C and P/I. It's time to regroup.

Where did P/I compete against R/H in the 2009-2010 season, let alone passed? P/I didn't even make it to the JGP Final whereas R/H did. R/H is still ranked higher than HM/C nationally and convincingly so, they were the ones who passed HM/C this year, not the other way around. Granted, HM/C did beat them later at the 4CC, similar things have happened to V/M when they won the 2004 Junior Nationals but yet beaten by the older national silver medalists at the Junior Worlds. I think National results are more relevant in Ice Dance since international results can be all over the place, especially on the junior circuit.

Also, I do not believe a resolution has been agreed yet re: what to do with the CD and OD next year. As it stands, the OD is set to be rhythm based on the 1950's, 60's and 70's. But that could be changed depending on what happens to CD. Several proposals have been floated but nothing concrete as far as I am concerned, may I ask where you heard about an OD based on the Golden Waltz?

[Skatie]

Wallylutz - I agree - I thought the Canadians placements were very fair this year (can't say I've agreed every year tho!). As for 4CC placements - I don't place much stock in those results. The OD results appeared to be totally out of whack for many teams...Ralph & Hill had three, level 1s on elements (and then get highest TES on FD)...Hann-McC almost tied Weaver & Poje in OD etc!? This year will be a great year in Senior Dance for sure!