Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

[RumbleFish]

I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3 and unless the base value of 3A is not upgraded. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna much again (who has 3lz-3t and whom, unlike other ladies who attempt 3-3 of even lower base points, hardly ever the tech panels give UR punishments to, and whom they gift with huge GOEs) , not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.

1. Yuna rarely gets her jumps downgraded because she usually rotates them, and she receives GOEs because she earns it by meeting criteria predetermined by the IJS.
Other skaters will receive good GOEs if they perform their combinations well, c.f. Laura's 3T-3T at Torino Worlds and Mirai's 2A-3T at Olys.

2. Proposed rule for multiplying 1.1 for combinations will not benefit Yuna in particular, as all skaters, including Asada, will benefit similarly.
It is perfectly fair that Yuna's 3Lz-3T will receive highest bonus, as her jump has the highest base value among all ladies in the current field.
If I were an Asada fan, I would urge her to perform 3A-3T or at least reestablish 3F-3Lo rather than complaining about the rules or slandering Yuna.

3. I'd also like to point out that Asada actually benefits immensely from the proposed rule change allowing 3A in the SP.
Some people will argue that extra points that Asada will receive will be limited, as long as she doesn't perform a triple-triple combination.
This is looking at one side of coin only, totally neglecting what would happen if Asada fails to land her 3A.
Under current rules, by missing her 3A, Asada could potentially blow her combination altogether, or get her double axel wiped out as well in case her 3A attempt gets judged as an 2A, a la Rostelecom Cup.
Under proposed rule, the worst Asada could do by missing her 3A would be losing mere 3.5 points that she would have gotten performing a double axel.

[Mrs. P]

1. Yuna rarely gets her jumps downgraded because she usually rotates them, and she receives GOEs because she earns it by meeting criteria predetermined by the IJS.
Other skaters will receive good GOEs if they perform their combinations well, c.f. Laura's 3T-3T at Torino Worlds and Mirai's 2A-3T at Olys.

2. Proposed rule for multiplying 1.1 for combinations will not benefit Yuna in particular, as all skaters, including Asada, will benefit similarly.
It is perfectly fair that Yuna's 3Lz-3T will receive highest bonus, as her jump has the highest base value among all ladies in the current field.
If I were an Asada fan, I would urge her to perform 3A-3T or at least reestablish 3F-3Lo rather than complaining about the rules or slandering Yuna.

3. I'd also like to point out that Asada actually benefits immensely from the proposed rule change allowing 3A in the SP.
Some people will argue that extra points that Asada will receive will be limited, as long as she doesn't perform a triple-triple combination.
This is looking at one side of coin only, totally neglecting what would happen if Asada fails to land her 3A.
Under current rules, by missing her 3A, Asada could potentially blow her combination altogether, or get her double axel wiped out as well in case her 3A attempt gets judged as an 2A, a la Eric Bompard.
Under proposed rule, the worst Asada could do by missing her 3A would be losing mere 3.5 points that she would have gotten performing a double axel.

I think you're referring to the Rostelecom Cup when she got zero points for the second double axel.

I think it's probably more realistic for Mao to re-establish a 3F-3L. She's received UR on that 2T in her 3A-2T combo this year.

[cosmos]

Yuna's name is here because of the discussion on rules helping only one specific skater.


Requiring an axel jump has always been a requirement for the sp, proposed rule allows women to substitute 3a for 2a. Requiring a single jump out of footwork is always the requirment, women can even do a double toe out of footwork.



Yuna does get extra with new proposed rules. Unless new rules allow Mao to do two triple axels in the sp, how is she getting difference between 3a and 2a. She is already doing 3a in her sp now.

The discussion here is about changing rule for one specific skater. The 3-3 rule didn't change for YuNa, obviously

Most serious men land 3A, so it is fine requiring 3A or 2A for men. But, only one lady lands 3A. Others have no option but 2A. That is where unfairness comes from. If rule require 3Lz or 2Lz, how many people would scream unfair?

Not only 3-3, but all combos get extra point. Mao also includes combos in sp and lp. She also get extra points for her combos. She said she would include 3-3 again. If 3A is allowed in sp, she will definitely try to include 3-3. Her 3-3 may fail, but she has an open chance, anyway.

[yunasashafan]

OK, if only one woman skater is consistently of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)

Yes, but the bonus applies to ANY combination, not just the 3Lz-3T. All ladies do 3 combinations of some form in their LP and one in their SP, so everybody is benefitting from this rule. Yuna would get 1 extra point for her 3LZ-3T, which is the highest-scoring combination currently being attempted, but Laura Lepisto's 2S-2T-2T would get an extra 0.4 points. That's not what I call a major advantage.

Without the 3-3, Mao's 3A in the SP would enable her to substitute a triple for the 2A, thus giving her up to 2.5 points extra, if that triple happens to be a Lutz. With a 3-3, she could gain as much as 6 points in her SP base value.

I am all for pushing the limits for the sport, and I tink giving the ladies the option of a 3A instead of 2A is a natural progession. I can see, however, how the timing and the manner in which it happened can be regarded as a bit suspicious. IIRC, this same proposal was discussed some years ago (in the era of Harding and Ito) and was voted off.

[cosmos]

Actually it's one point. 10 X 1.1 = 11.

A point can make a difference. Especially when it's a close game.

Yes, but Mao's 3A-2T or other possible combos get raised too. So, the real extra point YuNa gets (1-Mao's 3A-2T value raise) is below 0.1.

[tarotx]

I think nearly all the ladies can do a good 2A in their sleep so why not allow the require axel be a triple? Why not give a little incentive for ladies to push their limits? If this rule passes I think we may see more ladies go for the triple axel because for one the double axel requirement will be gone and second going for a triple but it gets downgraded-it's still a double axel. I think perhaps in the future we may see more women do triple axel then true triple lutzes. Especially if the tech callers get stricter and stricter with edge calls. I think giving a bonus to 3-3's is also an incentive to push limits. And the 2 quad's in the men's short as well. I believe the regression talk though out COP's history but up front and center during the 2010 Olympics has really opened some eyes. I hope it passes and then I'll hope that along with the required axel a required edge jump and toe jump is required in the future. I also hope that each spin be significantly different too. For the short. I want these to be true technical programs.

I like the no spiral or second foot work sequence in short as well. It leaves more room for individualism and (especially for the men) was just a second test of the same skill set. I want to see ladies spirals but with foot work the way it is now and with the pcs skating skills and especially transition there is no real different skill being tested enough to waste time on ugly positions.

And the half loop be a loop for 3 jump combinations will make things interesting in the long. It makes a 3S-.5 loop-3t worth full points.

I hope it all passes

[cosmos]

I think nearly all the ladies can do a good 2A in their sleep so why not allow the require axel be a triple? Why not give a little incentive for ladies to push their limits? If this rule passes I think we may see more ladies go for the triple axel because for one the double axel requirement will be gone and second going for a triple but it gets downgraded-it's still a double axel. I think perhaps in the future we may see more women do triple axel then true triple lutzes. Especially if the tech callers get stricter and stricter with edge calls. I think giving a bonus to 3-3's is also an incentive to push limits. And the 2 quad's in the men's short as well. I believe the regression talk though out COP's history but up front and center during the 2010 Olympics has really opened some eyes. I hope it passes and then I'll hope that along with the required axel a required edge jump and toe jump is required in the future. I also hope that each spin be significantly different too. For the short. I want these to be true technical programs.

I like the no spiral or second foot work sequence in short as well. It leaves more room for individualism and (especially for the men) was just a second test of the same skill set. I want to see ladies spirals but with foot work the way it is now and with the pcs skating skills and especially transition there is no real different skill being tested enough to waste time on ugly positions.

And the half loop be a loop for 3 jump combinations will make things interesting in the long. It makes a 3S-.5 loop-3t worth full points.

I hope it all passes

The current rule already has enough incentive for 3A. If you can add 3A to your 3-3 and 3Lz, you wins. But, Mao doesn't have 3Lz and 3-3, and that is why she lost to YuNa. It was't because Mao wasn't rewarded enough for her 3A.

[RumbleFish]

Some people argue that Asada won't benefit too much, because Asada currently lacks a 3-3 combination.

current layout: 3A-2T, 3F, 2A
changed layout assumption: 3A, 3F-2T, 3Lo

Base value increases by only 1.5 points.

However, this is looking at only one side of the coin.

1. Real benefit arises when Asada screws up her 3A.
Under current rules, by missing her 3A, Asada could potentially blow her combination altogether.
In even worse cases, she could get her double axel wiped out as well if her 3A attempt gets judged as an 2A, a la Rostelecom Cup.
Simply put, a failed 3A attempt under current rules could lead to loss of 10 to 15 points and bombing of SP for Asada.

Under proposed rule, the worst Asada could do by missing her 3A would be losing base value of 8.2.
In reality, she will likely receive around 3.5 points as long as she does not underrotate and fall.

Proposed rule will act as a cap for potential loss Asada could suffer from doing a risky 3A.

2. Asada won't have to do the 3A in combination.
If we look at last 2 major competitions, it is easy to spot that Asada has problems rotating her 3A especially when it is done in combination.

Vancouver Olys: both attempts of 3A in combination looked underrotated, though ratified for some reason. Individual 3A in FS looked OK.
Torino Worlds: both attempts of 3A in combination got dinged. Individual 3A looked OK

By letting Asada do 3A free of combination, the proposed rule will enhance success rate for Asada.

Proposed rule is a well crafted attempt at increasing success rate for Asada's 3A and minimizing point loss in case of failure.
People should not be deceived by it's benignly small upside benefit, but scruntinize it's influence on minimizing losses.

[RumbleFish]

I also want to point out that proposed rule for multiplying 1.1 for combinations will not benefit Yuna in particular, as all skaters, including Asada, will benefit similarly.
It is perfectly fair that Yuna's 3Lz-3T will receive highest bonus, as her jump has the highest base value among all ladies in the current field.
If I were an Asada fan, I would urge her to perform 3A-3T or at least reestablish 3F-3Lo rather than complaining about the rules or slandering Yuna.

[RumbleFish]

I think you're referring to the Rostelecom Cup when she got zero points for the second double axel.

Thanks for the heads up.
I edited my post.

[tarotx]

The proposed 3A rule will benefit Mao and any skater willing to do the 3A now that they wouldn't have to worry about keeping the 2A perfect. I want the sport pushed to it's limit and the required 2A keeps ladies stagnated. Mao isn't a power jumper and she does a respectable attempt at a 3A and I think that this means that most women in the future should be able to get their 3A. If last gen men had 3A's then the ladies coming up should have it. That's the way it's been with the other triples.

I don't see why Yu Na can't get a triple Axel. Her double is usually beautiful so why not try for the triple? Why not push her limits? It's a new goal and I know she's looking for goals to keep competing. Now that she wouldn't have to use all that energy on a super hard level 4 spiral (since the lp spiral would just be for goe) and there would be no required double axel in the short and one less throw away double axel attempt in the long, why not go for a triple axel?

Yu Na could really benefit since she has all the other triple-yes even the loop that she didn't compete lately because it being only 1 point more then a double axel which was easier on her old injuries.

[Hanaka]

Why is a surprise?

As I explained earlier, it's more difficult to rotate that second jump. You have have good speed and be within that center of axis to rotate all the way around the second time and flow out of it well.

As commentators have explained, In a 3Z-3T you have to rotate 6 times around while you rotate 5.5 times in a 3A-2T combo.

It's the same reason that a 3A is more difficult and worth more (apparently not enough for some folks) than a 3Z. It's that extra half rotation. So why does it mystify people that you get more points for an extra half-rotation in a jump combination?

I don't skate, but I have a friend who skates. I heard from him that 3A is an extremely hard jump, it's difficult not just because it needs a half more rotation than 3, but because it is an AXCEL jump. Taking off of 3A gives you enormous fear, that's one of the things he said. (I read that Mao feared, feared, feared, feared, feared 3A and she cried, cried, cried, cried, cried thinking that she could not manage to do it.) I can't describe what he said in English properly, so I give up here.

But when I look at men's competitions and see a lot of men have difficulties in 3A, so many mistakes and falls on that jump, and there are even some men's champions who struggle with it and have hard time landing it and some of them actually can hardly land it, while not as many men have trouble landing 3-3.
That's why I feel just a single 3A must be an extremely difficult jump (ask the men) and 3A combo is even more difficult, particularly for a woman.

[Joesitz]

Hi Joesitz, appreciate the reply. Well, you say tomato...If it's a matter of descriptive choice, I certainly won't argue.

My own view, though, is that the reason that "artistic" or "artistry" is not generally used vis-a-vis ballet, opera, etc. performances is that the existence of artistry is wholly assumed, not because it is being denied. Skating, on the other hand, is often ambivalent about its dual nature, hence the use of the word either in praise or in scorn (Elvis Stojko, anyone?).

Interesting thought about the adjective 'artistry' not being used in Opera, Ballet but I believe it is because the great singers and dancers are limited to 'great performances' each time they perform, and not because they have consistent great performances. One vocalist may perform a great Tosca but misfire on Carmen.

The noun 'Art' can certainly be used as in The Art of Figure Skating; The Art of Cinemetography, The Art of Playwriting, The Art of Plumbing meaning a high level of workmanship. It is my opinion that Michelle Kwan exemplifies the Art of Figure Skating. It is, however, just an opinion. Biographers like to toss around words like 'artistic', 'Diva', 'Most popular', but these too, are just opinions of the biographer.

I am also of the opinion that die hard Figure Skating Fans want their Sport to be equal to those of the Performing Arts. But is it? Can a 4 minute version of chopped up music be equal to a 3 plus hour of musical drama? I know I am in the minority, but I can only see good performances in figure skating sometimes and not always consistent with the same performer. I do enjoy them though when I do see them. What can one say about John Curry?

As for Elvis Sctojko, I believed his performances were more than adequate if not great. JMO

[ayayukiituka]

Some people argue that Asada won't benefit too much, because Asada currently lacks a 3-3 combination.

current layout: 3A-2T, 3F, 2A
changed layout assumption: 3A, 3F-2T, 3Lo

Base value increases by only 1.5 points.

If she does 3A, 3F-2T and 3Lo at competetions, she will get only 1.5 points up.
but I heard she wants to attempt 3-3 and 3Lz( I'm thinking she won't try 3Lz in SP) a few times.

She really try 3-3, she would get more points.

I mean she will do if she wants to:3A,3F-3Lo(or 3T) and 3Lz,3T or 3Lo
the base value is 22.7 points!!

I believe she gets 3-3 back and recieve a lot more points.

[Mathman]

Cui bono? (That's for Robeye )

Who benefits from the new ten per cent bonus on combinations?

Kim:

SP: 3Lz+3T = 10.00
LP: 3Lz+3T = 10.00
......2A+2T+2Lo = 5.50
......2A+3T = 7.50

Total (not counting second half bonuses and base points lost to under-rotations) = 33.00

Benefit from new rule = 3.30 points

Asada:

SP: 3A+2T = 9.50
LP: 3A+2T = 9.50 points
.....3F+2Lo = 7.00
.....3F+2Lo+2Lo = 8.50

Total: 34.50 (those 2-loops add up! )

Benefit from new rule = 3.45 points.