Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

yunasashafan · May 1, 2010

Mrs. P said:
Also, I think Yuna can still do the 3L. When the NYT did that video on her, it showed her doing a beautiful triple loop. I just think her team just decided to not have it competition. But that doesn't mean she can't do it. I think it's the same for Mao with the 3S.

Courtesy of yunaforum.com:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgaFOHnlAjs

I am not sure which competition that was. To me, it looks as good, if not slightly better, than her 3S.

ETA: I think it was 2009 4CC, LP warmup (she attempted it in the competition and fell).

Layfan · May 1, 2010

rtureck said:
Wally, I think you are a bit overthinking this. I don't think the tech committee is accomodating Mao with the proposal. Actually consistent with your reasoning, maybe the tech guys are accomodating Yuna since they are giving one more point to 3/3. Anyway since you said the Japanese fed is not pushing this, I see no conspiracy here. And why should the tech committee accomodate Mao? she is the OSM, not the OGM.

Overall I don't have any problem with the proposed changes except maybe the spiral sequence. I don't think the tech committee has any specific skater in mind when they propose the changes. It mayh seem to benefit Joubert and hurt Chan, but I think oerall the proposals advance skating which is a sport. On the surface the no three 2a may hurt YUna but giving extra 1 point for 3/3 will benefit her too. On the surface it may benefit Mao, but since her batting average for 3a is not that high, it may even hurt her.

I agree from the POV spirals being used to enhance the program, and I too am bored with evvery skater doing the same spiral in the past few seasons.

Me too. Especially since so many of the spiral sequences these days are so awful. It especially ruins a short program to have such an ugly and non-musical moment take up so much time.
I like this rule. I'd worry that it will discourage girls from working on spirals but as far as I can tell COP only encourages women to get into horrible positions anyway because they seem to get full credit even if they look awful.
I understand that the spirals are also about the steadiness of the edge and how long you can hold it. But who cares how long a skater holds a spiral if they look like they're in pain the whole time and cheating their back and hip placements just to get their legs a little higher? Ew.

As for the 3a, I am not sure what to think. And I have a question (sorry if it's been answered but haven't seen it): Does the new rule mean that a woman can do two 3a in the SP? i.e. one in combo and one alone? If that's the case it would definitely give skaters like Mao a big advantage, although it would be pretty risky of her to try that in a short, no?

I think we'd have to see how it would play out. Just because girls CAN do a 3a in the short doesn't mean they will necessarily think it would be advantageous to throw their eggs in that basket.
What would someone like Mao do with that extra jump option? If she still had no 3-3 would she still be at at disadvantage because the 3 lutz-3T is still worth more than a 3a? This time she was able to do a 3a in her short AND a 2a. What would she do with her combo if she didn't have to worry about the 2a? I'm not so sure she would have SUCH an advantage over Yuna.
And as for the other girls, Mao is already way ahead of them anyway when she skates clean. Some like Mirai could focus on getting her 3 lutz-3toe consistent and still potentially have an advantage of Mao in the short, no?

yunasashafan · May 1, 2010

Layfan said:
As for the 3a, I am not sure what to think. And I have a question (sorry if it's been answered but haven't seen it): Does the new rule mean that a woman can do two 3a in the SP? i.e. one in combo and one alone? If that's the case it would definitely give skaters like Mao a big advantage, although it would be pretty risky of her to try that in a short, no?
I think we'd have to see how it would play out. Just because girls CAN do a 3a in the short doesn't mean they will necessarily think it would be advantageous to throw their eggs in that basket.

I do not think so. I believe the no-jump-can-be-repeated-in-the-short-program rule would still apply, as it applies to the solo and combination jumps (You can't do a 3F-2T and 3F).

Layfan said:
What would someone like Mao do with that extra jump option? If she still had no 3-3 would she still be at at disadvantage because the 3 lutz-3T is still worth more than a 3a? This time she was able to do a 3a in her short AND a 2a. What would she do with her combo if she didn't have to worry about the 2a? I'm not so sure she would have SUCH an advantage over Yuna.
And as for the other girls, Mao is already way ahead of them anyway when she skates clean. Some like Mirai could focus on getting her 3 lutz-3toe consistent and still potentially have an advantage of Mao in the short, no?

Mao can beneifit a lot if she put a 3-3 instead of her 3A-2T. A layout like 3F-3T, 3Lo, 3A would add almost 5 points to her base value compared to the 3A-2T,3F,2A layout she had last season. Without the 3-3, her gain would be on the order of 1.5 points.

bekalc · May 1, 2010

O.K., I get what you are saying now, thanks for the clarification. Your argument has one critical flaw however. You are completely ignoring the strategic positioning of jump repetition in the overall construction of a LP. 2A+3T will automatically cross out a combo box and a wasted opportunity to repeat a more difficult jump in the program. I have explained these many times before so I will just have to refer you to how I answered these questions previously:

No Wally I'm not because the skaters only get to repeat two jumps and get 3 combos. So the third combo is free. You can choose to add the triple toe to your easiest jump. And make your harder jumps you want to repeat, easier combinations. Plushenko's easiest jump was a double axel (because he wasn't doing the 3flip) so he could have done a double axel/3toe instead of his 4toe/3toe. And heck, if he had done the double axel/3toe at the end of his program and that's a much easier combination so that's more likely-his base value would have been HIGHER. Its fairly ridiculuos. If Plushenko wanted to repeat the 4toe, he could have done a 4toe/2toe instead a 3lutz/2toe. Ideally he'd add on a 2loop at the end of the double axel/3toe/2loop.. :lol:

Frankly I don't think 10% bonus is enough for combinations. But its better than the current system.

tarotx · May 1, 2010

The only real way that the 3A rule will benefit Mao is that she can do the 3A now without worrying about a downgrade and losing all value. Plus I think this will encourage her to drop the 3A-2t and go for her 3-3 again.

I think this may encourage Ladies to train the 3A since they now won't have to worry about losing a good 2A. This is something I've wanted since the Midori era because of that reason. But I also wouldn't limit women to just triples in the short either.

I love the combo bonus because a combo is definitely harder then two solo jumps. What I wander is, if a half loop is considered a loop, could a skater do 3s-.5loop-3t as a combination (as their 3 jump combo) and then also do a 2a sequence? Just wishful thinking right?

hikki · May 1, 2010

Just a random thought- Don't you think 3toe/3loop is more difficult than 3loop/3toe? With the current system they're the same thing.

blue_idealist · May 1, 2010

hikki said:
Just a random thought- Don't you think 3toe/3loop is more difficult than 3loop/3toe? With the current system they're the same thing.

Yeah, I would agree with that

100yen · May 1, 2010

This is really interesting.

I'm not against these, rules however. Enabling a 3A is simply just allowing skaters to do what they can do. Not allowing skaters perform to their full potential is like saying to Leonardo da Vinci, "You can't paint people any more because you are so good at and most other people can't!" It's like a restrictive crutch when skaters can't do what they can do.

The spiral proposition scared me a little at first, but now I am thinking that skaters can now take advantage of this and use in a good way. Shorter, more robust and edge-rich spirals could encourage them to hold better positions with more speed across the ice and give it a little joy instead of looking at it as another hurdle in the program. On the other hand, it could go completely the opposite way. :/

Mathman · May 1, 2010

hikki said:
Just a random thought- Don't you think 3toe/3loop is more difficult than 3loop/3toe? With the current system they're the same thing.

I think the new rule would be better if the ten percent bonus applied only to the second jump. For the first jump, if it is landed really well the skater can pick up some extra GOE and dose not need an increase in base value in addition. It is the second jump of a triple-triple that deserves a extra credit in the base value.

Many skaters (especially men) can manage to tack on a scratchy 2T at the end of something even if the first jum,p is faulty. I do not see any reason why a skater should get an extra 10% for a triple Axel just because he threw up a 2T afterward.

This would automatically give more points for a 3T+3Lo than for a 3Lo-3T. And it would substantially reward a triple-triple, while not having much effect on a triple-double.

100yen said:
Shorter, more robust and edge-rich spirals could encourage them to hold better positions with more speed across the ice and give it a little joy instead of looking at it as another hurdle in the program.

OT, but this gets my vote for the best-written sentence on this thread. :clap:

Mathman · May 1, 2010

janetfan said:
I recall you disagreed with me and said it was about many skaters (and not a skater who retired the next year).

Well, I probably overstated my position trying to win some kind of obscure debating point.

What I think is that the forces within the ISU that were interested in making figure skating more TV friendly were very pleased to have Janet Lynn to front their cause, and might not have gotten anywhere without her at that time.

On the other side of that debate, there has always been a party within the figure skating establishment that sees itself as the guardian of pure sport, never mind TV audiences. These folks attempt to hold the line against theatrical costumes, show-boat moves like back-flips and headbangers, popular music, and audience-pleasing gimmicks.

About the current 3A debate, no, I don't think the new rule change will make the sport any richer or more popular. I think it is motivated more by the "higher, stronger, faster" side of things than by the "richer.".

Are you suggesting that the 2A is no longer acceptable to TV and arena viewers and therefore ISU is making this bold move to increase skating's popularity? :think:

No. In fact, I think the double Axel is the most beautiful jump in skating. I saw Yuka Sato do one in an exhibition program to Amazing Grace that made me want to follow the composer of that song and quit the slave trade to become a preacher. (I did not need a triple flip to convince me of the error of my sinful ways.)

In any case, the new rule will not make the double Axel go away. 99.9% of all skaters will do a double Axel in the short program. One or two will gamble with the triple instead and take their chances.

Basics · May 1, 2010

100yen said:
The spiral proposition scared me a little at first, but now I am thinking that skaters can now take advantage of this and use in a good way. Shorter, more robust and edge-rich spirals could encourage them to hold better positions with more speed across the ice and give it a little joy instead of looking at it as another hurdle in the program. On the other hand, it could go completely the opposite way. :/

yeah, but I think they should still make it a required element in SP. To me that's an element, alongside layback spin, distinguished ladies from men in figure skating. They could have adjusted the rule like the one for FS, instead of taking them completely out.

As for limiting double axels to twice, some mediocre-level skaters surely will struggle with the rule. They will have a hard time organizing a good layout. I wish they just lowered the base value of 2A.
Plus, I don't understand the idea of limiting the number of only a certain kind of jump, while some others still do four double loop programs. yeah, they only worth a little so it doesn't really matter score-wise, but if they are really pushing skaters for a well-balanced program, they are not doing it right. :disapp:

Blades of Passion · May 1, 2010

Aside from allowing men to do 2 Quads in the SP, which is interesting, I think these changes would be dumb.

Spiral Sequences need to be changed in how they are scored, not removed.

Removing a footwork sequence altogether from Men's SP? What?

The LP needs to allow for more variety in the elements that can be executed, not the SP.

koheikun90 · May 1, 2010

I like the changes to the jump options in the short program. It will definitely push the level of the sport for the skaters and the level of suspense for viewers. But, do these changes shorten the length of the programs? What are skaters going to do with that extra time? I feel that it may potentially decrease the number of transitions as skaters will probably use that time to set up for quad jumps (for men) and triple axel (for ladies). If that happens, then the judges need to really scrutinized that component in the PCS.
One rule I wish the ISU would pass is an automatically one point deduction for omitting elements in the SP.

I feel that there are rule changes that are simply unfair. I'm disappointed that the ISU is capping the number of entrants for world championships, decreasing the number of qualifiers for the free skate and that there are no substitutions for skaters who withdrawn before the free skate. That means less skating for us!!!!

Joesitz (RIP) · May 1, 2010

Robeye said:
The old short story "The Monkey's Paw" (the theme being that the results of a wish may not be what was expected) suddenly popped into mind when I read this. I don't know about "faux artistry", but if artistry were not a fundamental part of figure skating, it would lose its uniquely addictive appeal, and I suspect not just for me but for a majority of fans, both hardcore and general public. I'd probably stop following it and watch more golf or football, while skating would probably go the way of curling.

And ironically, it's because of the artistry (faux or otherwise) that skating is not completely dominated by little girls (that and the age rule). As a rule, jumps don't age well, but artistry does.

What 'artistry' the skaters have is what the choreographer told them to do. The little girls have no clue what a.rtistry is. It's the same old story that Figure Skating and Artistry go together, and that's why the technical is marked higher than the Program Component Score to give the little girls a chance at a medal. Tthere is no score for 'artistry'. if there is, show me where it is. It's what was called the Presentation Score from day 1

Nowadays, it is called Program Component Score which covers much more than simply the artistry in the mind of the beholder. "Artistry", is in other words, an opinion which is tossed around in Forums as is flexibility.

PROKOFIEV · May 1, 2010

I also heard about major changes on spins, as well. Skaters are not supposed to repeat the same form of spins in one program. Has anybody heard about the detail?

princess9 · May 1, 2010

I cannot imagine ladeeez skating without spirals. It separates the women from the girlz. I hope they make certain spins mandatory. A layback should be. I want to see a true ballet back attitude, with leg position as classically done. I'd like to see the SP elements clearly defined and exactly the same for every skater. I can't say exactly now what I'd want to be done, but it would be wonderful to see the technique of each element done by every skater and watch how the judges score it. I know figures will not return but I wish they would. The best skaters from the old days had beautiful quality due to this very difficult discipline. I wish they'd make it a mandatory part of training under USFSA guinelines or ISU. I don't want to return to making it part of score like old system, but they really need to teach it.

ImaginaryPogue · May 1, 2010

1. How conceivable is it that several ladies will start landing triple axels? Right now, there are six women who've been credited with the jump and only one is still skating (I think we all assume Meissner's done competing). In terms of sheer physics/biology - is it actually possible that a significant minority of elite women will be successful with the triple axel? If not, then what's the point? How is it pushing the sport if it's simply not a realistic possibility.

2. I (obviously) don't like the fixed base value for the second step sequence/spiral sequence. It makes no sense to me. Aren't they now doing the same thing to those elements that people complained that they were doing about the jumps?

100yen · May 1, 2010

Mathman said:
OT, but this gets my vote for the best-written sentence on this thread.

Thank you

PROKOFIEV · May 2, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
1. How conceivable is it that several ladies will start landing triple axels? Right now, there are six women who've been credited with the jump and only one is still skating (I think we all assume Meissner's done competing). In terms of sheer physics/biology - is it actually possible that a significant minority of elite women will be successful with the triple axel? If not, then what's the point? How is it pushing the sport if it's simply not a realistic possibility.

2. I (obviously) don't like the fixed base value for the second step sequence/spiral sequence. It makes no sense to me. Aren't they now doing the same thing to those elements that people complained that they were doing about the jumps?

\
I can asure yuu that by Sochi, you will see several russian girls will be landing 3A. Michin with help of talented russian coaches will make sure that wil happen. So i believe it is necessary to have this rule change as soon as possible.

wallylutz · May 2, 2010

bekalc said:
No Wally I'm not because the skaters only get to repeat two jumps and get 3 combos. So the third combo is free.

Sorry, you obviously still don't get it. :sheesh: This will be the last time I will try to repeat this, yet again. The 3rd combo is not "free", your thinking is deeply flawed. An important objective of any good LP is to be able to squeeze as many jumps as possible, including Doubles, especially the Double Axels because they add up pretty quickly. Someone who spent 8 jumping passes and completed 1 Quad + 8 Triples + 1 Double Axel will be at a serious disadvantage vs. someone who did 1 Quad + 8 Triples + 3 Double Axels.

What makes you think Plushenko's decision of adding a 3T behind his 4T was a good one? I certainly didn't say that. Put this in another way, he knows he wasn't getting any difficulty bonus for adding the 3T behind the 4T - whether this is fair or not, it doesn't matter since his objective was to win the Olympic Gold the only thing that made sense was to plan accordingly and work within the system. If he didn't plan to repeat the Quad - it was pointless in attaching a 3T behind it. Not only that, if he somehow makes mistakes on the 3T, even though his 4T was clean, he would end up getting dinged on the GOE based on the hardest jump in the combo and that means negative GOE at a factor 1.6 per -1 GOE. This along with his failure to do a 3 jump combo, which eventually cost him a Gold medal in Vancouver showed he deserved his defeat, hands down. So instead of screaming ridiculous here and there - the wiser thing to do is to work with the system. I could probably fill a whole page of things I don't like re: IJS but procrastination won't get me or you anywhere.

Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

yunasashafan

Layfan

yunasashafan

bekalc

tarotx

hikki

blue_idealist

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft

Mathman

Mathman

Basics

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

koheikun90

Joesitz (RIP)

PROKOFIEV

princess9

ImaginaryPogue

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft

PROKOFIEV

wallylutz

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