Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011 | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
The Korean Times' take on the changes

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/sports/2010/05/136_65207.html

Asada would greatly benefit from the new system if she can do a triple-triple combination along with a triple axel in the short program. However, the Japanese star didn't include any combined triples last season because she was more focused on polishing her trademark triple axel and her previous triple-triple attempts were mostly downgraded due to a problem with poor rotation.

A new rule in the long program, however, could challenge Kim, who strongly relies on three double axels to make up for the lack of a triple loop.

Kim, currently at No. 1 in the world ranking by a large margin, has been ruling out the triple loop in her programs for the last few seasons because of shaky landings. Asada, in contrast, did only one double axel in her Vancouver free routine.

Some critics also say the inclusion of a triple axel in the short program wouldn't be good for Mao, because it remains to be seen how much longer Asada will perform that jump.

Asada was the only skater to include the 3.5-rotation jump in her routines for the last couple of seasons, but mostly ended up receiving deductions for under-rotation.

In Vancouver, she turned the tables to land all three of her triple axels in the short and free programs. However, her success rate has remained below 50 percent throughout her career, with the Japanese skater suspected of having passed her physical golden moment.

The article seemed pretty fair, until that last sentence. Who suspects that Mao has passed her physical golden moment? I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the skating world say anything like that.

Besides, she's only 19. She probably could do the triple axel for a few more years. Heck Midori Ito was almost 23 when she did her 3A at the 1992 Olympics!
 
Last edited:

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Robeye - I understand your need to use the term "Artistry" which I do not. However, as a patron of the performing arts, I have never noticed the word Artistry mentioned. The Actors, Balerinos, and the Opera Singers and their fans are satisfied that their great performances received a huge reception, and are very much aware that, that may well be ephermeral(sp). No critic, not even PBS use the term to describe a performing star as having great artistry. In fact PBS calls one of their programs: Great Performances. It's only in Figure Skating does one read that a skater has great artistry or a skater lost because of a lack of artistry.

I am sure we will select the "best" skater in a competition and you will call it great artistry and I will call it a great presentation.

Hi Joesitz, appreciate the reply. Well, you say tomato...If it's a matter of descriptive choice, I certainly won't argue.

My own view, though, is that the reason that "artistic" or "artistry" is not generally used vis-a-vis ballet, opera, etc. performances is that the existence of artistry is wholly assumed, not because it is being denied. Skating, on the other hand, is often ambivalent about its dual nature, hence the use of the word either in praise or in scorn (Elvis Stojko, anyone?).
 

Hanaka

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3 and unless the base value of 3A is not upgraded. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna much again (who has 3lz-3t and whom, unlike other ladies who attempt 3-3 of even lower base points, hardly ever the tech panels give UR punishments to, and whom they gift with huge GOEs) , not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.
 
Last edited:

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
perhaps).

The triple axel is very difficult, yes, but don't be fooled into thinking a 3-3 is easier. If it was, then why aren't more women doing it? I can count on my two hands the number of women that did a 3-3 at Worlds and on one hand who did a tougher one than the 3T-3T.

OK, if only one woman skater is consistently of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)

originally post by Hanaka

I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna(who has 3lz-3t) much again, not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.

Exactly what I am thinking. The new rules have the appearance of benefiting Mao, actually Yuna is the one who is most likely being helped. I still don't understand how the new rules will benefit Mao tht much, she is already putting 3as in both sp and lp
 
Last edited:

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
I can understand your points but you don't seem to mention the LP where these jumps can be tried or the fact that the purpose of the SP was to see who can do the required elements the best. Yes, the SP is supposed to be comparitve to an extent. Since the skaters are free to choose between Loops, Salchows, flips and Lutzes one could say why not axels too? OK, but if I am judging Mao and Yuna (I mention them because they are both great) it is possible they may have no comparitive jumps in their respective SP's.

That does make the SP feel the same as a mini LP. Is that such a good idea?

Maybe the requirements for the SP and LP should be exactly the same with the only difference being the duration. Again, that feels like a lot just to give one skater a better chance in the SP.

It's OK to disagree but I see no other explanation for the new axel rule. When or maybe I should say IF the Ladies get to the point where we are seeing many 3A's in the LP's and atleast 3-4 in the SP's then it would feel like the right and natural time for this change.

Doing it now it seems factually correct to state that is for one skater's benefit since no other skater is attempting it. I don't buy this attempt at smokescreening it as anything other than what it is.

Maybe next year ISU will make a few changes with Mirai as the benefactor. In which case I would be leading the charge to support it :laugh:

Agreed!!

OK, if only one woman skater is capable of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)
I believe, rule changed in the past to allow 3-3 because there were a few skaters who did that.

What if we change the sp rule as: require 3Lz or 2 Lz (You cannot replace it by flip). I think this looks more reasonable than the current proposal. At least, there are many ladies who land 3Lz.

Exactly what I am thinking. The new rules have the appearance of benefiting Mao, actually Yuna is the one who is most likely being helped.
Not really. Mao (and other skaters) also gets bonus from her 3A-2T and other combos. There is nothing YuNa gets extra.
 
Last edited:

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
originally posted by JanetfanI
I can't stress enough that it is not a conspiracy or even unethical that the JSF would try and help Mao.

OK, if there is no conspiracy, JSF did not give a bunch of yen $$$ to the ISU tech guys, then why is ISU doing this? Out of the kindess of their heart? And why help Mao? She is staying for the next 4 yrs (and I speculoate Yuna will not). Shouldn't ISU try her best to sweeten the rules for YUna instead?

Agreed!!


I believe, rule changed in the past to allow 3-3 because there were a few skaters who did that.

What if we change the sp rule as: require 3Lz or 2 Lz (You cannot replace it by flip). I think this looks more reasonable than the current proposal. At least, there are many ladies who land 3Lz.

Women skater in the past who did 3/3, like who were able to consistently do 3/3? Tara had consitent 3l/3l, Kwan had Ok success with 3t/3t, Irina? hit and miss, Sarah Hughes? hit and miss, Arakawa? I don't remember any consisitent 3/3 from her, definitely not Cohen. So far I have covered most of the olys and world medalists. So, it still seems like the current rule is benefiting one specific skiater Yuna

Actually how about change the rules to require a triple loop at least one in both programs, since most ladies can do it, and it is not even the most difficult jump, it is just a middle of the difficult jumps.

Not really. Mao also gets bonus from her 3A-2T and other combos.
But we all know who gets the most number of points out of her combo
 
Last edited:

Hanaka

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
OK, if only one woman skater is consistently of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)
Exactly what I am thinking. The new rules have the appearance of benefiting Mao, actually Yuna is the one who is most likely being helped. I still don't understand how the new rules will benefit Mao tht much, she is already putting 3as in both sp and lp



Exactly.

I have edited my post.
I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3 and unless the base value of 3A is not upgraded. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna much again (who has 3lz-3t and whom, unlike other ladies who attempt 3-3 of even lower base points, hardly ever the tech panels give UR punishments to, and whom they gift with huge GOEs) , not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.
 

Hanaka

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Not really. Mao (and other skaters) also gets bonus from her 3A-2T and other combos. There is nothing YuNa gets extra.

But surprisingly, 3LZ-3T has more base points than 3A-2T. And they are still going to give even more points to Yuna's combo than Mao's combo by the rule of x 1.1.
 

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
OK, if there is no conspiracy, JSF did not give a bunch of yen $$$ to the ISU tech guys, then why is ISU doing this? Out of the kindess of their heart? And why help Mao? She is staying for the next 4 yrs (and I speculoate Yuna will not). Shouldn't ISU try her best to sweeten the rules for YUna instead?



Women skater in the past who did 3/3, like who were able to consistently do 3/3? Tara had consitent 3l/3l, Kwan had Ok success with 3t/3t, Irina? hit and miss, Sarah Hughes? hit and miss, Arakawa? I don't remember any 3/3 from her, definitely not Cohen. So far I have covered most of the olys and world medalists. So, it still seems like the current rule is benefiting one specific skiater Yuna

Actually how about change the rules to require a triple loop at least one in both programs, since most ladies can do it, and it is not even the most difficult jump, it is just a middle of the difficult jumps.


But we all know who gets the most number of points out of her combo

The rule change including 3-3 had nothing with YuNa. Why is her name here?

You got me wrong. What I am saying is: if you can't land 3Lz you can use 3F (or other triple) instead in the current rule. But, if you can't 3A, there is nothing you use except 2A. That is unfair. It is like requiring 3Lz or 2Lz.

There is nothing YuNa gets extra, but Mao gets extra points difference between 3A and 2A.
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
But surprisingly, 3LZ-3T has more base points than 3A-2T. And they are still going to give even more points to Yuna's combo than Mao's combo by the rule of x 1.1.

Why is a surprise?

As I explained earlier, it's more difficult to rotate that second jump. You have have good speed and be within that center of axis to rotate all the way around the second time and flow out of it well.

As commentators have explained, In a 3Z-3T you have to rotate 6 times around while you rotate 5.5 times in a 3A-2T combo.

It's the same reason that a 3A is more difficult and worth more (apparently not enough for some folks) than a 3Z. It's that extra half rotation. So why does it mystify people that you get more points for an extra half-rotation in a jump combination?

For the record, I did not bring up the 3-3 difficulty for any particular skater. Just to speak in general to the person that felt that a 3A should be worth 367 percent more base value than a triple lutz. (That poster may be exaggerating, but I don't know for sure, so I'm just going to leave it at that.)
 
Last edited:

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
But surprisingly, 3LZ-3T has more base points than 3A-2T. And they are still going to give even more points to Yuna's combo than Mao's combo by the rule of x 1.1.

That extra point YuNa gets from this rule change is below 0.1. Meaningless.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The rule change including 3-3 had nothing with YuNa. Why is her name here?

Yuna's name is here because of the discussion on rules helping only one specific skater.
You got me wrong. What I am saying is: if you can't land 3Lz you can use 3F (or other triple) instead in the current rule. But, if you can't 3A, there is nothing you use except 2A. That is unfair. It is like requiring 3Lz or 2Lz.

Requiring an axel jump has always been a requirement for the sp, proposed rule allows women to substitute 3a for 2a. Requiring a single jump out of footwork is always the requirment, women can even do a double toe out of footwork.

There is nothing YuNa gets extra, but Mao gets extra points difference between 3A and 2A.

Yuna does get extra with new proposed rules. Unless new rules allow Mao to do two triple axels in the sp, how is she getting difference between 3a and 2a. She is already doing 3a in her sp now.
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
OK, if there is no conspiracy, JSF did not give a bunch of yen $$$ to the ISU tech guys, then why is ISU doing this? Out of the kindess of their heart? And why help Mao? She is staying for the next 4 yrs (and I speculoate Yuna will not). Shouldn't ISU try her best to sweeten the rules for YUna instead?

But we all know who gets the most number of points out of her combo

Because they want to advance the sport. Simple as that. We can disagree about the means they do so. Maybe they're completely wrong and flawed, but I think it's safe to say that they're looking to tweak the system a little.

And what about the men? They will benefit greatly. Kevin VDP will see his 19.8 point 4-3-3 go up to 21.78 base value. Jeremy Abbott will see the 3Z-3T-2L combo he did this year to 12.65.

Also, there are other women working on 3-3 (including Mao!). So they will benefit too.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
That extra point YuNa gets from this rule change is below 0.1. Meaningless.

Actually it's one point. 10 X 1.1 = 11.

A point can make a difference. :) Especially when it's a close game.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Because they want to advance the sport. Simple as that. We can disagree about the means they do so. Maybe they're completely wrong and flawed, but I think it's safe to say that they're looking to tweak the system a little.

And what about the men? They will benefit greatly. Kevin VDP will see his 19.8 point 4-3-3 go up to 21.78 base value. Jeremy Abbott will see the 3Z-3T-2L combo he did this year to 12.65.

Also, there are other women working on 3-3 (including Mao!). So they will benefit too.

Thanks for a well balanced view on this. I too agree that ISU is trying to advance the sports. I actually think the quad rules for men has more equal if not more impact for future skaters. Now skaters like Patrick will need to add quad(s) in their programs.
 

RumbleFish

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3 and unless the base value of 3A is not upgraded. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna much again (who has 3lz-3t and whom, unlike other ladies who attempt 3-3 of even lower base points, hardly ever the tech panels give UR punishments to, and whom they gift with huge GOEs) , not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.

1. Yuna rarely gets her jumps downgraded because she usually rotates them, and she receives GOEs because she earns it by meeting criteria predetermined by the IJS.
Other skaters will receive good GOEs if they perform their combinations well, c.f. Laura's 3T-3T at Torino Worlds and Mirai's 2A-3T at Olys.

2. Proposed rule for multiplying 1.1 for combinations will not benefit Yuna in particular, as all skaters, including Asada, will benefit similarly.
It is perfectly fair that Yuna's 3Lz-3T will receive highest bonus, as her jump has the highest base value among all ladies in the current field.
If I were an Asada fan, I would urge her to perform 3A-3T or at least reestablish 3F-3Lo rather than complaining about the rules or slandering Yuna.

3. I'd also like to point out that Asada actually benefits immensely from the proposed rule change allowing 3A in the SP.
Some people will argue that extra points that Asada will receive will be limited, as long as she doesn't perform a triple-triple combination.
This is looking at one side of coin only, totally neglecting what would happen if Asada fails to land her 3A.
Under current rules, by missing her 3A, Asada could potentially blow her combination altogether, or get her double axel wiped out as well in case her 3A attempt gets judged as an 2A, a la Rostelecom Cup.
Under proposed rule, the worst Asada could do by missing her 3A would be losing mere 3.5 points that she would have gotten performing a double axel.
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
1. Yuna rarely gets her jumps downgraded because she usually rotates them, and she receives GOEs because she earns it by meeting criteria predetermined by the IJS.
Other skaters will receive good GOEs if they perform their combinations well, c.f. Laura's 3T-3T at Torino Worlds and Mirai's 2A-3T at Olys.

2. Proposed rule for multiplying 1.1 for combinations will not benefit Yuna in particular, as all skaters, including Asada, will benefit similarly.
It is perfectly fair that Yuna's 3Lz-3T will receive highest bonus, as her jump has the highest base value among all ladies in the current field.
If I were an Asada fan, I would urge her to perform 3A-3T or at least reestablish 3F-3Lo rather than complaining about the rules or slandering Yuna.

3. I'd also like to point out that Asada actually benefits immensely from the proposed rule change allowing 3A in the SP.
Some people will argue that extra points that Asada will receive will be limited, as long as she doesn't perform a triple-triple combination.
This is looking at one side of coin only, totally neglecting what would happen if Asada fails to land her 3A.
Under current rules, by missing her 3A, Asada could potentially blow her combination altogether, or get her double axel wiped out as well in case her 3A attempt gets judged as an 2A, a la Eric Bompard.
Under proposed rule, the worst Asada could do by missing her 3A would be losing mere 3.5 points that she would have gotten performing a double axel.

I think you're referring to the Rostelecom Cup when she got zero points for the second double axel.

I think it's probably more realistic for Mao to re-establish a 3F-3L. She's received UR on that 2T in her 3A-2T combo this year.
 

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Yuna's name is here because of the discussion on rules helping only one specific skater.


Requiring an axel jump has always been a requirement for the sp, proposed rule allows women to substitute 3a for 2a. Requiring a single jump out of footwork is always the requirment, women can even do a double toe out of footwork.



Yuna does get extra with new proposed rules. Unless new rules allow Mao to do two triple axels in the sp, how is she getting difference between 3a and 2a. She is already doing 3a in her sp now.

The discussion here is about changing rule for one specific skater. The 3-3 rule didn't change for YuNa, obviously

Most serious men land 3A, so it is fine requiring 3A or 2A for men. But, only one lady lands 3A. Others have no option but 2A. That is where unfairness comes from. If rule require 3Lz or 2Lz, how many people would scream unfair?

Not only 3-3, but all combos get extra point. Mao also includes combos in sp and lp. She also get extra points for her combos. She said she would include 3-3 again. If 3A is allowed in sp, she will definitely try to include 3-3. Her 3-3 may fail, but she has an open chance, anyway.
 
Last edited:

yunasashafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
OK, if only one woman skater is consistently of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)

Yes, but the bonus applies to ANY combination, not just the 3Lz-3T. All ladies do 3 combinations of some form in their LP and one in their SP, so everybody is benefitting from this rule. Yuna would get 1 extra point for her 3LZ-3T, which is the highest-scoring combination currently being attempted, but Laura Lepisto's 2S-2T-2T would get an extra 0.4 points. That's not what I call a major advantage.

Without the 3-3, Mao's 3A in the SP would enable her to substitute a triple for the 2A, thus giving her up to 2.5 points extra, if that triple happens to be a Lutz. With a 3-3, she could gain as much as 6 points in her SP base value.

I am all for pushing the limits for the sport, and I tink giving the ladies the option of a 3A instead of 2A is a natural progession. I can see, however, how the timing and the manner in which it happened can be regarded as a bit suspicious. IIRC, this same proposal was discussed some years ago (in the era of Harding and Ito) and was voted off.
 
Last edited:

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Actually it's one point. 10 X 1.1 = 11.

A point can make a difference. :) Especially when it's a close game.

Yes, but Mao's 3A-2T or other possible combos get raised too. So, the real extra point YuNa gets (1-Mao's 3A-2T value raise) is below 0.1.
 
Last edited:
Top