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Thread: Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

  1. #151
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    <<日本がSPのルール変更提案へ>>

    So where is JSF proposal in the June Congress agenda? It is mysteriously absent. Anyone care to explain such mysterious absence? rtureck perhaps, since he/she seems to have all the answers.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    <<日本がSPのルール変更提案へ>>

    So where is JSF proposal in the June Congress agenda? It is mysteriously absent. Anyone care to explain such mysterious absence? rtureck perhaps, since he/she seems to have all the answers.
    Come on Wally, I don't have answers just questions. Ok I will play along and agree that the Japan fed is behind all this, and the ISU bow to them. But why, does Japan fed sacrifice Miki for Mao then? And I stil have the question, is Japan fed really that powerful?

    BTW, do you care to translate the Japanese/ Korean/ or Asian text in your previous posts

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    Come on Wally, I don't have answers just questions. Ok I will play along and agree that the Japan fed is behind all this, and the ISU bow to them. But why, does Japan fed sacrifice Miki for Mao then? And I stil have the question, is Japan fed really that powerful?

    BTW, do you care to translate the Japanese/ Korean/ or Asian text in your previous posts
    The article is in Japanese. The title of the article: "Does this favor Mao-chan? Japan to propose rule changes in the SP"

    You can also read the goldenskate thread referenced for more information since that topic was discussed at length there.

  4. #154
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Also, you might consider that under the new changes, since she no longer has to perform a 3A in combo, it might free up her energy to perform a 3-3.
    To me, that would be totally amazing, it would represent a big jump in women's figure skating, and any skater who was able to include such a jump layout would rightly deserve to be at the top of the standings going into the LP.

    3A
    3F+3T
    3Lo

    She's got my vote! (I hope Rachael Flatt does this next year.)

  5. #155
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    You're making a leap stating that wallylutz is implying that Ando's being sacrificed for Asada. It's worth mentioning that (a) if you believe wallylutz, the way the ISU is going about this differs significantly from previous proposals and (b) that if it's to push the sport forward, it doesn't really make sense to limit quads for ladies. After all, one lady has landed them (years ago and she doesn't land them now, hence why it's not really sacrificing one for another).

    As for the Japanese Fed being powerful, I have to admit I'm curious myself.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    You're making a leap stating that wallylutz is implying that Ando's being sacrificed for Asada. It's worth mentioning that (a) if you believe wallylutz, the way the ISU is going about this differs significantly from previous proposals and (b) that if it's to push the sport forward, it doesn't really make sense to limit quads for ladies. After all, one lady has landed them (years ago and she doesn't land them now, hence why it's not really sacrificing one for another).

    As for the Japanese Fed being powerful, I have to admit I'm curious myself.
    Sorry, I am not implying Wallylutz advocated that Japan fed is sacrificing Miki for Mao. I am just thinking if 3a is allowed and quad not allowed than Miki potentially is lmited

    Anyway, there are more rules change than 3a. I am curious with the rule change in spiral who benefit / suffer. Out of the top lady skaters who has the best/ highest amd worst scoring spiral sequence under current rule. ( I think Caro usually scores decent with her spirals?)

    I agree with a previous poster, it does not seem like ladeez skating without spirals.

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    Oh me too. What will Chan do with the limited step sequence? Will he say "hell with it" and go for the quad? How does this push the sport forward? Spiral question is interesting. Someone posted a really in depth look early this season about the previous season in terms of scores/GOEs. Does anyone know where that went?

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    No conspiracy theory required, this public statement is conclusive as to both the intention and the action of JSF. This was dated March 29, 2010. The statement even specifically mentioned the ISU Congress in June, which also implied the change was going to be proposed and happen in that specific event. And here, we have this information package for the June Congress agenda that already includes such change, voila!
    Still, I am having trouble working up my righteous indignation. The Japanese Federation pushed for this change. They got the ISU technical committee to consider the idea, and it eventually passed the committee. Therefore the Japanese Federation had no need to submit the proposal to the full congress.

    I guess my sense of outrage has become dulled. This sounds like business as usual to me.

    To me, the emphasis of the debate should be on the merits of the proposal, not on the wickedness of those sly Japanese. (Now, the wickedness of those sly Russians -- that's another story altogether! )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill in this triple Axel discussion.

    Ladies are already permitted to do triple Axels, if they are able. They are already permitted to do two triple Axels in the long program. They are already permitted to do a triple Axel in the short program, either in combination or out of footwork. The only change in the proposed rules is to add "or as a substitute for the double Axel" to the previous sentence.

    I do not think that this change will cause a sudden rush of young skaters and their coaches to say, well, I didn't give two hoots about the triple Axel when it was allowed only twice in the LP and once in the SP substituting for another jump in combination or out of footwork. But -- whoa -- now I can substitute if for the double Axel in the SP!!! That's for me!

    I also do not see how the discussion of how few ladies can do a fully rotated triple Axel is relevant. If nobody can take advantage of the new rule, that's life. If a few adventurous souls want to try, more power to 'em.



    OT -- a challenger to 100yen's "best sentence" crown.
    I agree with you that the 3A rule change will have only a mild effect on the results of competition, which is why I've stayed out of that discussion. My only concern is that pushing the physical envelope inevitably has an effect on injuries, it's just a matter of where that tipping point happens to be. You could be right that we've haven't reached it with the particular change in question, but if the trend outraces physical capacity at some stage, then it may have to be dealt with in retrospect, but only after the damage has been already been done to a lot of skaters. That aspect should always be seriously thought out, is all I'm saying.

    Appreciate the award. I'd like to thank my mother, my agency, and all the little people that have assisted me along the way...

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Oh me too. What will Chan do with the limited step sequence? Will he say "hell with it" and go for the quad? How does this push the sport forward? Spiral question is interesting. Someone posted a really in depth look early this season about the previous season in terms of scores/GOEs. Does anyone know where that went?
    About the spiral and step sequence changes, my interpretation is that the ISU wants steps, turns and moves in the field like spirals to become part of general skating, rather than specific scored elements.

    I agree with this principle. When a skater comes to a complete stop at the end of the rink, takes a deep breath and announces to the world "now I am going to do my step sequence ... ... OK, now I am finished with my step sequencethat, let's go back to jum,ping" -- that just takes away the whole idea of an integrated, well-choreographed program.

    Same with the spiral sequence. "Now I am going to do my spiral sequence. Three seconds forward, awkwardly grab foot, three seconds backward, three seconds dog-and-hydrant burlesque -- next up, my triple Salchow."

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, that would be totally amazing, it would represent a big jump in women's figure skating, and any skater who was able to include such a jump layout would rightly deserve to be at the top of the standings going into the LP.

    3A
    3F+3T
    3Lo

    She's got my vote! (I hope Rachael Flatt does this next year.)
    Mao had a similar jump layout in her free skate in previous seasons, although she's had problems fully rotating her 3-3's, which is most likely the reason that she excluded them from her program this season.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    OK Janet fan, I will play, why does ISU do this just for Mao? She is really that popular? I thought Yuna is more popular.


    OK, I will play along in this conspiracy theory. So why does ISU do it for Mao at the expense ofr Miki? Allowing 3a and forbidding quad jumps. If one is skeptical about ISU bowing to pressure of a federation, is Japan fed really tht powerful? And are we saying that Japan fed is sacrificing Miki for Mao?
    First please don't think I blame or accuse Mao of anything.
    But the answer is self-evident ........ Mao is the ONLY skater able to do a 3A in her SP. Who ELSE could this rule change possibly be about

    I never said conspiracy and see this as a straight ahead lobbying effort by the JSF to give Mao a better chance to score more points in the SP - which is also coincidentily and typically the weaker of Mao's two programs. I can't stress enough that it is not a conspiracy or even unethical that the JSF would try and help Mao.
    My problem is that ISU did not make this change for the good of skating. It is unrealistic and more like a distortion of the truth and historical facts to say the next big thing in Ladies skating will be the triple axel.

    If we don't see atleast 4-5 Ladies trying 3A's in their SP next season then this statement will be proven to be an undisputable truth that this new axel rule was changed only for Mao.

    Since Miki hasn't tried her quad that often (did she try it at WTT during her meltdown there?) and rarely tries or complete a 3x3 anymore I don't think it makes that much sense to say Miki was sacrificed for Mao.
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-02-2010 at 12:28 PM.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    My problem is that ISU did not make this change for the good of skating. It is ridiculous and more like a blatant distortion of the truth and historical facts to say the next big thing in Ladies skating will be the triple axel.
    I think that depends on what each person's view of the "good of skating" really is.
    I wholly respect your opinion, but personally I believe that this is for the good of skating. I feel like people are making too big a deal out of this issue. It all really boils down to just one thing...one extra rotation in the air. If a figure skater can do this, why not let them? If not, they don't have to, it's not like the ISU is doing something crazy like making it required.

    In another perspective, back when they were not commonplace, what if a man could land two beautiful quads in one program but no other skaters could do this feat at the time, so therefore he was restricted to one of those quads being a triple. This just sounds nonsensical to me. In a sport, there is always someone who has to accomplish something first before many more start doing it; it took 10 years before more than one or two different men could land a quad in the same compeition. If skaters are not even allowed to do what they can do (while keeping a varied jumping layout), I don't feel like that is good for the sport at all.

    And considering the amount of ladies with wonderful high or delayed double axels now, mixed with the ones who struggle to even get the full rotation, it's impossible to predict the future. Neither you nor I can guess whether or not more girls will try triple axels. It's just not feasible to say that they will or will not.

    So as for the rule, I say, why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    OT -- a challenger to 100yen's "best sentence" crown.
    Time to break out the thesarus

  14. #164
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    . Put this in another way, he knows he wasn't getting any difficulty bonus for adding the 3T behind the 4T - whether this is fair or not, it doesn't matter since his objective was to win the Olympic Gold the only thing that made sense was to plan accordingly and work within the system. If he didn't plan to repeat the Quad - it was pointless in attaching a 3T behind it. Not only that, if he somehow makes mistakes on the 3T, even though his 4T was clean, he would end up getting dinged on the GOE based on the hardest jump in the combo and that means negative GOE at a factor 1.6 per -1 GOE. This along with his failure to do a 3 jump combo, which eventually cost him a Gold medal in Vancouver showed he deserved his defeat, hands down. So instead of screaming ridiculous here and there - the wiser thing to do is to work with the system. I could probably fill a whole page of things I don't like re: IJS but procrastination won't get me or you anywhere.
    Plushenko knows that the system discouraged quads, but he really believed that the system should encourage it, and so he was going to go for the quad/3toe anyways. Just like Daisuke decided to go for his quad at the Olympics because he believed it was something a men's champion should do. I know Joubert has long announced that he wouldn't go for a 4toe/3toe in the long as long as the system didn't reward it.

    But the point is Wally that not everyone thinks it was a good thing that men who were capable of doing 4t/3toes were discouraged from doing so in the long program. If this is a sport than doing a 4toe/3toe should be encouraged, over a 3lutz/3toe. That's the point. Nobody's saying that means someone should automatically win. But if someone has the ability to do a really difficult combination they should get rewarded for it point wise in the jumps, over those who can't do the more difficult jumps.

    For example Kevin Reynolds 4toe/3toe/3toe. An amazing combination. Kevin though would have gotten the exact same base value (although not GOE but still) doing two triple/triple combination and the 4toe as a single jump, as he got doing that amazing combination. That's just ridiculous. Now Kevin not being on the podium was totally justifable given his not so great skating skills. But the thing is it wouldn't have killed the system by giving him a few more points for that incredible combination.

    Because the problem is that there are skaters with great skating skills, who can do that combinations. For example Nobunari Oda was landing 4toe/3toe/3loops in practice at the Olympics. But Nobunari under the old system was never going to try that combination because of the way the system would reward it. And I'm sorry but that's just very sad for the sport. The point is that the current system encourages people to play things safe, where it should be encouraging someone like Oda to go for a combination like that.
    So I'm hopefully with the new rules things will change.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-02-2010 at 12:56 PM.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    I think that depends on what each person's view of the "good of skating" really is.
    I wholly respect your opinion, but personally I believe that this is for the good of skating. I feel like people are making too big a deal out of this issue. It all really boils down to just one thing...one extra rotation in the air. If a figure skater can do this, why not let them? If not, they don't have to, it's not like the ISU is doing something crazy like making it required.

    In another perspective, back when they were not commonplace, what if a man could land two beautiful quads in one program but no other skaters could do this feat at the time, so therefore he was restricted to one of those quads being a triple. This just sounds nonsensical to me. In a sport, there is always someone who has to accomplish something first before many more start doing it; it took 10 years before more than one or two different men could land a quad in the same compeition. If skaters are not even allowed to do what they can do (while keeping a varied jumping layout), I don't feel like that is good for the sport at all.

    And considering the amount of ladies with wonderful high or delayed double axels now, mixed with the ones who struggle to even get the full rotation, it's impossible to predict the future. Neither you nor I can guess whether or not more girls will try triple axels. It's just not feasible to say that they will or will not.

    So as for the rule, I say, why not?

    :
    I can understand your points but you don't seem to mention the LP where these jumps can be tried or the fact that the purpose of the SP was to see who can do the required elements the best. Yes, the SP is supposed to be comparitve to an extent. Since the skaters are free to choose between Loops, Salchows, flips and Lutzes one could say why not axels too? OK, but if I am judging Mao and Yuna (I mention them because they are both great) it is possible they may have no comparitive jumps in their respective SP's.

    That does make the SP feel the same as a mini LP. Is that such a good idea?

    Maybe the requirements for the SP and LP should be exactly the same with the only difference being the duration. Again, that feels like a lot just to give one skater a better chance in the SP.

    It's OK to disagree but I see no other explanation for the new axel rule. When or maybe I should say IF the Ladies get to the point where we are seeing many 3A's in the LP's and atleast 3-4 in the SP's then it would feel like the right and natural time for this change.

    Doing it now it seems factually correct to state that is for one skater's benefit since no other skater is attempting it. I don't buy this attempt at smokescreening it as anything other than what it is.

    Maybe next year ISU will make a few changes with Mirai as the benefactor. In which case I would be leading the charge to support it
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-02-2010 at 01:59 PM.

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