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Thread: Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

  1. #181
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    The Korean Times' take on the changes

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...136_65207.html

    Asada would greatly benefit from the new system if she can do a triple-triple combination along with a triple axel in the short program. However, the Japanese star didn't include any combined triples last season because she was more focused on polishing her trademark triple axel and her previous triple-triple attempts were mostly downgraded due to a problem with poor rotation.

    A new rule in the long program, however, could challenge Kim, who strongly relies on three double axels to make up for the lack of a triple loop.

    Kim, currently at No. 1 in the world ranking by a large margin, has been ruling out the triple loop in her programs for the last few seasons because of shaky landings. Asada, in contrast, did only one double axel in her Vancouver free routine.

    Some critics also say the inclusion of a triple axel in the short program wouldn't be good for Mao, because it remains to be seen how much longer Asada will perform that jump.

    Asada was the only skater to include the 3.5-rotation jump in her routines for the last couple of seasons, but mostly ended up receiving deductions for under-rotation.

    In Vancouver, she turned the tables to land all three of her triple axels in the short and free programs. However, her success rate has remained below 50 percent throughout her career, with the Japanese skater suspected of having passed her physical golden moment.
    The article seemed pretty fair, until that last sentence. Who suspects that Mao has passed her physical golden moment? I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the skating world say anything like that.

    Besides, she's only 19. She probably could do the triple axel for a few more years. Heck Midori Ito was almost 23 when she did her 3A at the 1992 Olympics!
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 05-02-2010 at 10:42 PM.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Robeye - I understand your need to use the term "Artistry" which I do not. However, as a patron of the performing arts, I have never noticed the word Artistry mentioned. The Actors, Balerinos, and the Opera Singers and their fans are satisfied that their great performances received a huge reception, and are very much aware that, that may well be ephermeral(sp). No critic, not even PBS use the term to describe a performing star as having great artistry. In fact PBS calls one of their programs: Great Performances. It's only in Figure Skating does one read that a skater has great artistry or a skater lost because of a lack of artistry.

    I am sure we will select the "best" skater in a competition and you will call it great artistry and I will call it a great presentation.
    Hi Joesitz, appreciate the reply. Well, you say tomato...If it's a matter of descriptive choice, I certainly won't argue.

    My own view, though, is that the reason that "artistic" or "artistry" is not generally used vis-a-vis ballet, opera, etc. performances is that the existence of artistry is wholly assumed, not because it is being denied. Skating, on the other hand, is often ambivalent about its dual nature, hence the use of the word either in praise or in scorn (Elvis Stojko, anyone?).

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    I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3 and unless the base value of 3A is not upgraded. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna much again (who has 3lz-3t and whom, unlike other ladies who attempt 3-3 of even lower base points, hardly ever the tech panels give UR punishments to, and whom they gift with huge GOEs) , not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.
    Last edited by Hanaka; 05-02-2010 at 11:53 PM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    perhaps).

    The triple axel is very difficult, yes, but don't be fooled into thinking a 3-3 is easier. If it was, then why aren't more women doing it? I can count on my two hands the number of women that did a 3-3 at Worlds and on one hand who did a tougher one than the 3T-3T.
    OK, if only one woman skater is consistently of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)

    originally post by Hanaka

    I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna(who has 3lz-3t) much again, not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.
    Exactly what I am thinking. The new rules have the appearance of benefiting Mao, actually Yuna is the one who is most likely being helped. I still don't understand how the new rules will benefit Mao tht much, she is already putting 3as in both sp and lp
    Last edited by rtureck; 05-02-2010 at 11:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I can understand your points but you don't seem to mention the LP where these jumps can be tried or the fact that the purpose of the SP was to see who can do the required elements the best. Yes, the SP is supposed to be comparitve to an extent. Since the skaters are free to choose between Loops, Salchows, flips and Lutzes one could say why not axels too? OK, but if I am judging Mao and Yuna (I mention them because they are both great) it is possible they may have no comparitive jumps in their respective SP's.

    That does make the SP feel the same as a mini LP. Is that such a good idea?

    Maybe the requirements for the SP and LP should be exactly the same with the only difference being the duration. Again, that feels like a lot just to give one skater a better chance in the SP.

    It's OK to disagree but I see no other explanation for the new axel rule. When or maybe I should say IF the Ladies get to the point where we are seeing many 3A's in the LP's and atleast 3-4 in the SP's then it would feel like the right and natural time for this change.

    Doing it now it seems factually correct to state that is for one skater's benefit since no other skater is attempting it. I don't buy this attempt at smokescreening it as anything other than what it is.

    Maybe next year ISU will make a few changes with Mirai as the benefactor. In which case I would be leading the charge to support it
    Agreed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    OK, if only one woman skater is capable of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)
    I believe, rule changed in the past to allow 3-3 because there were a few skaters who did that.

    What if we change the sp rule as: require 3Lz or 2 Lz (You cannot replace it by flip). I think this looks more reasonable than the current proposal. At least, there are many ladies who land 3Lz.

    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    Exactly what I am thinking. The new rules have the appearance of benefiting Mao, actually Yuna is the one who is most likely being helped.
    Not really. Mao (and other skaters) also gets bonus from her 3A-2T and other combos. There is nothing YuNa gets extra.
    Last edited by cosmos; 05-02-2010 at 11:59 PM.

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    originally posted by JanetfanI
    I can't stress enough that it is not a conspiracy or even unethical that the JSF would try and help Mao.
    OK, if there is no conspiracy, JSF did not give a bunch of yen $$$ to the ISU tech guys, then why is ISU doing this? Out of the kindess of their heart? And why help Mao? She is staying for the next 4 yrs (and I speculoate Yuna will not). Shouldn't ISU try her best to sweeten the rules for YUna instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Agreed!!


    I believe, rule changed in the past to allow 3-3 because there were a few skaters who did that.

    What if we change the sp rule as: require 3Lz or 2 Lz (You cannot replace it by flip). I think this looks more reasonable than the current proposal. At least, there are many ladies who land 3Lz.
    Women skater in the past who did 3/3, like who were able to consistently do 3/3? Tara had consitent 3l/3l, Kwan had Ok success with 3t/3t, Irina? hit and miss, Sarah Hughes? hit and miss, Arakawa? I don't remember any consisitent 3/3 from her, definitely not Cohen. So far I have covered most of the olys and world medalists. So, it still seems like the current rule is benefiting one specific skiater Yuna

    Actually how about change the rules to require a triple loop at least one in both programs, since most ladies can do it, and it is not even the most difficult jump, it is just a middle of the difficult jumps.

    Not really. Mao also gets bonus from her 3A-2T and other combos.
    But we all know who gets the most number of points out of her combo
    Last edited by rtureck; 05-03-2010 at 12:20 AM.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    OK, if only one woman skater is consistently of doing 3/3, more specific 3z/3t, then I wonder if current rule is past specifically to benefit Yuna then. (Since so many here are claiming unfairness of new rules just benefiting Mao, since she is the only one doing the 3a)
    Exactly what I am thinking. The new rules have the appearance of benefiting Mao, actually Yuna is the one who is most likely being helped. I still don't understand how the new rules will benefit Mao tht much, she is already putting 3as in both sp and lp


    Exactly.

    I have edited my post.
    I don't think the new 3A in ladies SP rule would benefit Mao much unless she gains consistent 3-3 and unless the base value of 3A is not upgraded. Besides, there is the increasing the base points of comb. jumps , and not increasing the base point of 3A. To my eyes , the new rules would be set up to benefit Yuna much again (who has 3lz-3t and whom, unlike other ladies who attempt 3-3 of even lower base points, hardly ever the tech panels give UR punishments to, and whom they gift with huge GOEs) , not so much Mao, and possibly could benefit young Russian ladies who already have 3-3 and working to add 3A in their arsenals for the Sochi Olympics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Not really. Mao (and other skaters) also gets bonus from her 3A-2T and other combos. There is nothing YuNa gets extra.
    But surprisingly, 3LZ-3T has more base points than 3A-2T. And they are still going to give even more points to Yuna's combo than Mao's combo by the rule of x 1.1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    OK, if there is no conspiracy, JSF did not give a bunch of yen $$$ to the ISU tech guys, then why is ISU doing this? Out of the kindess of their heart? And why help Mao? She is staying for the next 4 yrs (and I speculoate Yuna will not). Shouldn't ISU try her best to sweeten the rules for YUna instead?



    Women skater in the past who did 3/3, like who were able to consistently do 3/3? Tara had consitent 3l/3l, Kwan had Ok success with 3t/3t, Irina? hit and miss, Sarah Hughes? hit and miss, Arakawa? I don't remember any 3/3 from her, definitely not Cohen. So far I have covered most of the olys and world medalists. So, it still seems like the current rule is benefiting one specific skiater Yuna

    Actually how about change the rules to require a triple loop at least one in both programs, since most ladies can do it, and it is not even the most difficult jump, it is just a middle of the difficult jumps.


    But we all know who gets the most number of points out of her combo
    The rule change including 3-3 had nothing with YuNa. Why is her name here?

    You got me wrong. What I am saying is: if you can't land 3Lz you can use 3F (or other triple) instead in the current rule. But, if you can't 3A, there is nothing you use except 2A. That is unfair. It is like requiring 3Lz or 2Lz.

    There is nothing YuNa gets extra, but Mao gets extra points difference between 3A and 2A.
    Last edited by cosmos; 05-03-2010 at 12:37 AM.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanaka View Post
    But surprisingly, 3LZ-3T has more base points than 3A-2T. And they are still going to give even more points to Yuna's combo than Mao's combo by the rule of x 1.1.
    Why is a surprise?

    As I explained earlier, it's more difficult to rotate that second jump. You have have good speed and be within that center of axis to rotate all the way around the second time and flow out of it well.

    As commentators have explained, In a 3Z-3T you have to rotate 6 times around while you rotate 5.5 times in a 3A-2T combo.

    It's the same reason that a 3A is more difficult and worth more (apparently not enough for some folks) than a 3Z. It's that extra half rotation. So why does it mystify people that you get more points for an extra half-rotation in a jump combination?

    For the record, I did not bring up the 3-3 difficulty for any particular skater. Just to speak in general to the person that felt that a 3A should be worth 367 percent more base value than a triple lutz. (That poster may be exaggerating, but I don't know for sure, so I'm just going to leave it at that.)
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 05-03-2010 at 12:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanaka View Post
    But surprisingly, 3LZ-3T has more base points than 3A-2T. And they are still going to give even more points to Yuna's combo than Mao's combo by the rule of x 1.1.
    That extra point YuNa gets from this rule change is below 0.1. Meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    The rule change including 3-3 had nothing with YuNa. Why is her name here?
    Yuna's name is here because of the discussion on rules helping only one specific skater.
    You got me wrong. What I am saying is: if you can't land 3Lz you can use 3F (or other triple) instead in the current rule. But, if you can't 3A, there is nothing you use except 2A. That is unfair. It is like requiring 3Lz or 2Lz.
    Requiring an axel jump has always been a requirement for the sp, proposed rule allows women to substitute 3a for 2a. Requiring a single jump out of footwork is always the requirment, women can even do a double toe out of footwork.

    There is nothing YuNa gets extra, but Mao gets extra points difference between 3A and 2A.
    Yuna does get extra with new proposed rules. Unless new rules allow Mao to do two triple axels in the sp, how is she getting difference between 3a and 2a. She is already doing 3a in her sp now.
    Last edited by rtureck; 05-03-2010 at 12:52 AM.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    OK, if there is no conspiracy, JSF did not give a bunch of yen $$$ to the ISU tech guys, then why is ISU doing this? Out of the kindess of their heart? And why help Mao? She is staying for the next 4 yrs (and I speculoate Yuna will not). Shouldn't ISU try her best to sweeten the rules for YUna instead?

    But we all know who gets the most number of points out of her combo
    Because they want to advance the sport. Simple as that. We can disagree about the means they do so. Maybe they're completely wrong and flawed, but I think it's safe to say that they're looking to tweak the system a little.

    And what about the men? They will benefit greatly. Kevin VDP will see his 19.8 point 4-3-3 go up to 21.78 base value. Jeremy Abbott will see the 3Z-3T-2L combo he did this year to 12.65.

    Also, there are other women working on 3-3 (including Mao!). So they will benefit too.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    That extra point YuNa gets from this rule change is below 0.1. Meaningless.
    Actually it's one point. 10 X 1.1 = 11.

    A point can make a difference. Especially when it's a close game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Because they want to advance the sport. Simple as that. We can disagree about the means they do so. Maybe they're completely wrong and flawed, but I think it's safe to say that they're looking to tweak the system a little.

    And what about the men? They will benefit greatly. Kevin VDP will see his 19.8 point 4-3-3 go up to 21.78 base value. Jeremy Abbott will see the 3Z-3T-2L combo he did this year to 12.65.

    Also, there are other women working on 3-3 (including Mao!). So they will benefit too.
    Thanks for a well balanced view on this. I too agree that ISU is trying to advance the sports. I actually think the quad rules for men has more equal if not more impact for future skaters. Now skaters like Patrick will need to add quad(s) in their programs.

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