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Thread: Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

  1. #61
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    ...I suppose you can argue Mao Asada has a need. But I am concerned that by accommodating her, it will have unintended consequences on others. Maybe I worry too much, maybe you are absolutely right but I haven't yet heard from a single skating coach who thinks this proposal actually makes sense. I guess time will tell, I just hope it won't end with some spectacular disasters on TV in the same way of the Luge accident in Vancouver.
    That is actually quite a jarring comparison. The Canadian Olympic Committee admitted to moral (but, tellingly, not legal) responsibility for this accident. Anxious not to be shut out of the medals in their own Olympics, they deliberately made the 50-50 turn so difficult that no one could do it. Then they proceeded to allow Canadian sliders, but not athletes from other countries, to practice on the course for several weeks. The coach of the Canadian luge squad even bragged the day before the accident that -- yes, that is exactly what we did; all's fair in love, war and the Olympics. (Not, of course, that the Canadian OC actually wanted anyone to die -- just to wipe out on the turn.)

    So, are we accusing the Japanese Figure Skating Federation of the same thing -- putting other athletes at danger of life and limb in order to gain an advantage for the Japanese skater?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is actually quite a jarring comparison. The Canadian Olympic Committee admitted to moral (but, tellingly, not legal) responsibility for this accident. Anxious not to be shut out of the medals in their own Olympics, they deliberately made the 50-50 turn so difficult that no one could do it. Then they proceeded to allow Canadian sliders, but not athletes from other countries, to practice on the course for several weeks. The coach of the Canadian luge squad even bragged the day before the accident that -- yes, that is exactly what we did; all's fair in love, war and the Olympics. (Not, of course, that the Canadian OC actually wanted anyone to die -- just to wipe out on the turn.)

    So, are we accusing the Japanese Figure Skating Federation of the same thing -- putting other athletes at danger of life and limb in order to gain an advantage for the Japanese skater?
    To use your example maybe a certain federation wouldn't mind seeing alot of girls go SPLAT in competitions - as opposed to wanting a serious injury.

    The NBA had it's "Jordan rules" and now the ISU has it's own version.
    With Worlds and WTT scheduled for Tokyo next season doesn't ISU have the same right as the NBA to follow the money and protect it's stars?
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-01-2010 at 07:58 AM.

  3. #63
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    I agree with Mathman. Every federation in every sport will try to gain advantage for their own skaters. There's nothing new or strange about this. Probably a lot of compromises were made because I feel that these changes try to benefit everyone in a way. And I don't think Japan is the only country who favors the 3A rule. Russia would probably also favor it because some of their budding stars are already attempting the jump and since they're aiming for Sochi, this rule will most likely benefit them.

  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by wallylutz
    ...I suppose you can argue Mao Asada has a need. But I am concerned that by accommodating her, it will have unintended consequences on others.
    Wally, I think you are a bit overthinking this. I don't think the tech committee is accomodating Mao with the proposal. Actually consistent with your reasoning, maybe the tech guys are accomodating Yuna since they are giving one more point to 3/3. Anyway since you said the Japanese fed is not pushing this, I see no conspiracy here. And why should the tech committee accomodate Mao? she is the OSM, not the OGM.

    Overall I don't have any problem with the proposed changes except maybe the spiral sequence. I don't think the tech committee has any specific skater in mind when they propose the changes. It mayh seem to benefit Joubert and hurt Chan, but I think oerall the proposals advance skating which is a sport. On the surface the no three 2a may hurt YUna but giving extra 1 point for 3/3 will benefit her too. On the surface it may benefit Mao, but since her batting average for 3a is not that high, it may even hurt her.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    As I understand the proposal, it's approximately level 1 or nothing.

    In order to get no credit at all, the skater would have to perform less than is currently required for level 1 in a long program.

    So there's no reason to object on the grounds that skaters with good spirals would get no credit. That's not likely to happen. Even Yu-Na Kim's disastrous spiral sequence from this year's Worlds SP would qualify for the base mark.

    What could be a problem is that large differences in quality won't be reflected with large differences in scores. E.g., in the 2010 Worlds SP, Kim's spiral sequence got the lowest scores of any of the ladies who qualified for the LP, more than a point and a half below the next-lowest skaters' except for that of Akiko Suzuki, who also struggled with that element, and almost 4 full points below those of Asada and Kostner, who earned the highest marks for that element. That difference consisted of the difference in base mark between level 1 and level 4 plus the difference in GOEs between mostly -2s and mostly +2s.

    If everyone gets the same base mark, then the only distinctions in the scores for the element will be in the GOEs. So I would hope that they'll use the larger GOE increments currently used for the level 4 spiral sequences, and that judges will take into account the difficulty of what the skaters include in the element as well as the quality.

    Of course, now that difficulty can be whatever the skater is good at, not whatever fits most clearly and reliably into the specified level features.

    And the skaters will have the freedom to show more creativity and uniqueness in this element. They'll be able to design their spiral sequences better to fit the musical structure and program theme instead of designing them to earn the highest level.

    I hope that judges would take those qualities into account when awarding the GOE, and that the spirals will contribute more positively to the PCS, especially Choreography.

    Plus the fans won't have to watch every skater do the same three or four variations that are easiest to earn levels with over and over again and never get to see other variations that don't count as features or are too hard to consistently execute well enough to count.

    From the point of view of fairly scoring differences in difficulty, I don't love this proposal.

    But from the point of view of spirals being used to enhance the program as a whole rather than just for points, I think it could be positive.
    I agree from the POV spirals being used to enhance the program, and I too am bored with evvery skater doing the same spiral in the past few seasons.
    Last edited by rtureck; 05-01-2010 at 08:29 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    To use your example maybe a certain federation wouldn't mind seeing alot of girls go SPLAT in competitions - as opposed to wanting a serious injury.

    The NBA had it's "Jordan rules" and now the ISU has it's own version. With Worlds and WTT scheduled for Tokyo next season doesn't ISU have the same right as the NBA to follow the money and protect it's stars?
    I do think that every spectator sport must let its stars shine. Wallylutz raised the concern that girls might injure themselves trying to train the triple Axel. So I suppose the analogy would be, did a lot of little boys break their necks on the playground trying to be like Mike?

    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    I agree from the POV spirals being used to enhance the program, and I too am bored with evvery skater doing the same spiral in the past few seasons.
    I, too, agree with this excellent point.

  6. #66
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    Here is the LINK if you want to read all about it word for word.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/co...s-item,00.html

    I'll scrutinize it more on the weekend. Happy to see that Spirals in the Senior division are being changed to MIF where they belong and hopefully not all at once in a program.

    From my skimming, it seems to me that the ISU is making the changes more of a sport for the SP which it should be instead of a mini LP.
    There's plenty of room in the LP for the artistry lovers

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    I guess this means end of nonsense discussions about rewarding underrotated jumps with so-called intermediate points.
    It never made sense to me how a failure to do a triple jump could receive higher points than a successful double jump.

    As for limiting number of double axels, I find it unfair to limit double axels only while allowing other double jumps more than twice.
    If the Zayak rule were to be applied to double axels, it should limit number of double toes and double loops as well.

    Though I don't like giving small number of skaters advantage of choosing the triple axel as a required element, I don't think it would necessarily advantageous for Mao Asada.
    Who know if Yuna Kim or other skaters might step up their training and perform consistent triple axels?
    During 07/08 season, Nakano Yukari had far more success with 3A than Mao Asada, and it could happen again.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    I don't think the tech committee has any specific skater in mind when they propose the changes. It mayh seem to benefit Joubert and hurt Chan, but I think oerall the proposals advance skating which is a sport. On the surface the no three 2a may hurt YUna but giving extra 1 point for 3/3 will benefit her too. On the surface it may benefit Mao, but since her batting average for 3a is not that high, it may even hurt her.
    Yea I kinda agree with this. Personally, I am not even sure if the new rules will benefit Mao that much. I am disappointed that the the tech committee said nothing regarding the way downgrades are made and the base value of the jumps, which I feel affects most skaters to an extent.

  9. #69
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    As for limiting number of double axels, I find it unfair to limit double axels only while allowing other double jumps more than twice.
    I don't the double axel is worth more than the other doubles and it also has the potential for more GOE points too. (So its in many ways treated more like a triple than a double)

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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post

    As for limiting number of double axels, I find it unfair to limit double axels only while allowing other double jumps more than twice.
    If the Zayak rule were to be applied to double axels, it should limit number of double toes and double loops as well.
    Double axel is actually half way b/w a double and triple jump, since skaters rotate 2.5 times in air, I find nothing wrong to limit it to 2 per program

    Though I don't like giving small number of skaters advantage of choosing the triple axel as a required element, I don't think it would necessarily advantageous for Mao Asada.
    Who know if Yuna Kim or other skaters might step up their training and perform consistent triple axels?
    During 07/08 season, Nakano Yukari had far more success with 3A than Mao Asada, and it could happen again.
    Please read Wally's post carefully 3a is not a required element, skaters may substitute it for the 2a. Yeah, if yu want to say the proposed rules are "giving small number of skaters advantage", indeed giving one more base point to 3/3 is an advantage to Yuna. But you got it right maybe with the rule changes it will encourage more skaters to step up and train the 3a. If the rule benefit Yukari more, than more power to her. Who knows maybe Mishin's army of super Russian girls will kick every body butts at Sochi
    Last edited by rtureck; 05-01-2010 at 09:06 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do think that every spectator sport must let its stars shine. Wallylutz raised the concern that girls might injure themselves trying to train the triple Axel. So I suppose the analogy would be, did a lot of little boys break their necks on the playground trying to be like Mike?
    Dear Mathman,
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    I don't get the fuss. Yes, I'm pretty sure JSF lobbied for this proposal. So what? Not that other skaters MUST do 3A in SP, nor women's 3As will get 10 points bonus. It is just that they(well, "she") can do 3A in SP as a required axel jump instead of combination.
    It has been required to execute at least one axel jump in LP too, but how many women skaters bothered to try even once? Even in Midori Ito's era, no one but Tonya Harding ever tried(AFAIK) 3A in competitions. Do you really think a bunch of women skaters will try to wipe out the ice? Without a certain level of consistency in practice, I doubt they would try especially under the DG rule as most mens skaters avoid quads in SP.
    And injuries are inherent in sports.

    Worrying about splat fest or injuries is pointless IMO.
    Last edited by Mikoto; 05-01-2010 at 09:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do think that every spectator sport must let its stars shine. Wallylutz raised the concern that girls might injure themselves trying to train the triple Axel. So I suppose the analogy would be, did a lot of little boys break their necks on the playground trying to be like Mike?


    The analogy is misleading. In basketball, baskets are baskets. Style points (ie how you do them) don't count. The only differentiation is between two-pointers and threes, and nobody was ever injured practicing the twenty-five foot jumper.

    A closer analogy would be: Major League Baseball increases the value of a fastball in the zone from one strike to two, if it's above 95 mph. Do you think that might not increase the number of injuries, ruined arms and ruined careers? The problem is already serious enough even without the hypothetical rule change above.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    Double axel is actually half way b/w a double and triple jump, since skaters rotate 2.5 times in air, I find nothing wrong to limit it to 2 per program
    Can anyone name a Senior Lady skater who can not do a double axel? I don't want to hear about the one time she missed it. A double axel for ladies today is no more compelling than a proper double lutz. I would say one double axel is sufficient to display this jump. However in the LP where anything should go, more than one if and only if it fits a choreographic requierments.

    Please read Wally's post carefully 3a is not a required element, skaters may substitute it for the 2a. Yeah, if yu want to say the proposed rules are "giving small number of skaters advantage", indeed giving one more base point to 3/3 is an advantage to Yuna. But you got it right maybe with the rule changes it will encourage more skaters to step up and train the 3a. If the rule benefit Yukari more, than more power to her. Who knows maybe Mishin's army of super Russian girls will kick every body butts at Sochi
    I think the ISU is proposing to make it more of a Sport for Figure Skating and it's not just for little girls anymore. I praise them for it as well as Mischin for thinking about the sport rather than the faux artistry. I have nothing against good presentation but some fans seem to me to be engulfed in it

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I do think that every spectator sport must let its stars shine. Wallylutz raised the concern that girls might injure themselves trying to train the triple Axel. So I suppose the analogy would be, did a lot of little boys break their necks on the playground trying to be like Mike?

    .
    That analogy is OK but not really true since MJ did not have a pet move that was considered dangerous.
    The Jordan rules as you well know being from Motown were about favoring one athlete over others.

    At issue here seems to be the altering of rules to favor one skater over the other top 50 in the world. The injury aspect is important to those who have real concerns about the health of young skaters.

    In the entire history of Ladies skating how many have done 3A's? How many Ladies had ratified 3A's last season or to make it even more to the point - how many Ladies even attempted 3A's last season?

    Personally I agree with Wally about the purpose of the SP being a little bit like the CD in Ice Dancing.
    The purpose was to judge the precision skaters demonstrated on required elements while skating to music. The SP is not merely a shortened version of the LP and that was never it's purpose. Nor was showing off the hardest tricks.

    People keep saying the rule change might help several skaters - but there are not "several skaters" there is only one Lady skater doing the 3A. Let's be clear about that so discussion is based on reality and not fan's creative posturing.

    I don't really mind the rule change so much - but I find it incredulous that any poster can't see what it is about and who specifically it is meant to help.

    Is this 3A rule change created to take Ladies skating forward - or is it being changed to favor one skater - who is immensely popular - but has been having major technical problems with some of her other jumps and needs help keeping up with a rival?

    Let's just call it what it is..........

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