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Thread: Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

  1. #91
    Custom Title MikiAndoFan#1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I examined those on replay, Nakano's 3A were all under-rotated, so are her 3S+3Lo combos.
    But Yukari's 3A were all ratified, except at Nationals and Worlds and she hardly attempted the 3S+3Lo combination, so I think it's an irrelevant fact.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikiAndoFan#1 View Post
    But Yukari's 3A were all ratified, except at Nationals and Worlds and she hardly attempted the 3S+3Lo combination, so I think it's an irrelevant fact.
    Please show me clips where you think her 3A were ratified. The ones I saw - definitely UR, without a question.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I think you make a fair enough point that the rule changes might not benefit any particular skater but I can't help feeling the axel change is an attempt to do just that.
    Well, we had the same discussion a while back about whether the drastic rules changes of the 1970s -- reduction of importance of school figures and creation of the short program -- were put in place specifically to advance the fortunes of one particular skater, or whether instead that one skater just served as a catalyst for change that benefited the sport as a whole.

    I agree with RTureck's point that we needn't read anything sinister into this. Just like I don't think the Chicago Bulls bribed the NBA to let Michael Jordan take four steps instead of three on his driving dunks. (The NBA came yp with that all on its own. )

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    UR should be punished, but it should not be more severely punished than more distracting mistakes such as falls, stepouts, and handsdowns. It is frustrating when the audience get excited, professional commentators all agree that the jumps are cleanly rotated even after looking at the slow-mo, and then it's called otherwise. It is frustrating to see something so subtle and controversial can make a big difference in scores.

    Do they have any proposals addressing this issue that has been talked about a million of times during the last couple of years?
    EXACTLY

    This is ridiculous. I can't believe nothing (so far) has been done about it :banging:

    And heck, for the first time in 8 years I didn't even watch Worlds. Enough is enough
    Last edited by R.D.; 05-01-2010 at 11:41 AM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Please show me clips where you think her 3A were ratified. The ones I saw - definitely UR, without a question.
    I was talking about the 3A she landed in the 2007/2008 season. Three out of five of them were ratified.

    Skate Canada: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNz5E5Lka50
    Cup of Russia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li1yV4z89zI
    Grand Prix Final: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcMbCNzNF-Q

    These were ratified. Just because they were ratified, doesn't mean they were fully rotated.


  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Not sure, with only 4 Triples to work with, she will end up having to either include the Triple Loop and risk an error on that jump or downgrade the 7th jumping pass to something like a Double Flip. That's about 5 points of TES that is at risk here. This is not a trivial change for her.
    Actually no. This is what I have for Yuna without 3Lo.

    3Lz-3T
    3F
    2A-2T-2Lo
    3F-2T
    3S
    3Lz
    2A

    only 0.7 point loss from the current layout. of course, with adding 3Lo, she can now do two 3-3s which will be totally awesome.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, we had the same discussion a while back about whether the drastic rules changes of the 1970s -- reduction of importance of school figures and creation of the short program -- were put in place specifically to advance the fortunes of one particular skater, or whether instead that one skater just served as a catalyst for change that benefited the sport as a whole.

    )
    I recall you disagreed with me and said it was about many skaters (and not a skater who retired the next year).

    It was about TV broadcasting money and the fact that figures did not work for TV audiences.
    With the advent of color TV and better broadcasting possibilties ISU saw an opportunity to increase the popularity of the sport and went with it.

    Are you suggesting that the 2A is no longer acceptable to TV and arena viewers and therefore ISU is making this bold move to increase skating's popularity?

    I see only one reason for this change and do not think it will make skating more or less popular.
    It will help make limited money for a couple of years and then most likely be changed or simply ignored.

    I don't believe we will ever see more than 1-2 Lady skaters landing 3A's in the CoP era.
    Most are struggling to master the traditional triples and in fact very few do them today.

    Maybe it depends on what we like and what we think takes the sport forward.
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-01-2010 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    No, I don't think so. Aspiring pitchers already try to throw the ball as hard as they can, and will continue to do so no matter what rules are in place.

    (I will admit this, though. Ludmilla Nelidina landed a triple Axel at Skate America in 2002 -- who says European ladies can't jump?! Shortly thereafter, she suffered a nervous breakdown and never skated again. )
    This is simply not true. I've played some baseball (enough to know a bit about it, if not enough to brag about ). Smart coaches will teach aspiring pitchers to emphasize location and movement over pure velocity, as well as change of speed and pitch selection. This is the "craft" of baseball, under the current rules. At the pro level, even power pitchers need 3, maybe 4 types of pitches (only one of which is a 90+ fastball) to be any good. Even so, a lot of these guys develop hand/wrist/back/shoulder/groin, etc. problems that need surgery at some point. Sandy Koufax's career was cut short in his prime because his body broke down under the physical stresses. And for every Koufax who made it to the majors, there are many more whose injuries in high school/college/the minors can be attributed to trying to throw too hard.

    My point is that the situation would be even worse if the rules were changed such that throwing 95-mile fastball counted for more than a slider that catches the outside corner. Under the current rules, pitchers like Greg Maddux can exist and be considered a lock for the Hall of Fame. In my hypothetical scenario, where the fastball strikes counts for more than any other pitch, he'd probably have quit very young and become a dentist. Currently, coaches can teach young pitchers the craft because it's a real alternative; but if that theory lost viability under new incentives, you can bet that the off-speed pitch is going to be a thing of the past. The consequence of this would be skyrocketing injuries, because, truth be told, only a very small fraction of pitchers can throw at 95 mph for an extended period without causing serious harm to themselves. I think the analogy I'm trying to draw with figure skating is pretty self-explanatory.

    That being said, I can't say that I know for certain one way or the other whether the proposed increase in incentive for the 3A will have such an effect. But IMO it's worth thinking about and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    Actually no. This is what I have for Yuna without 3Lo.

    3Lz-3T
    3F
    2A-2T-2Lo
    3F-2T
    3S
    3Lz
    2A

    only 0.7 point loss from the current layout. of course, with adding 3Lo, she can now do two 3-3s which will be totally awesome.
    Also, I think Yuna can still do the 3L. When the NYT did that video on her, it showed her doing a beautiful triple loop. I just think her team just decided to not have it competition. But that doesn't mean she can't do it. I think it's the same for Mao with the 3S.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Also, I think Yuna can still do the 3L. When the NYT did that video on her, it showed her doing a beautiful triple loop. I just think her team just decided to not have it competition. But that doesn't mean she can't do it. I think it's the same for Mao with the 3S.
    If yuna stays i believe she will replace one of the 2A with the 3 Loop, i saw a vid of her doing 2a-3t-2l so it wont be hard for her

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Also, I think Yuna can still do the 3L. When the NYT did that video on her, it showed her doing a beautiful triple loop. I just think her team just decided to not have it competition. But that doesn't mean she can't do it. I think it's the same for Mao with the 3S.
    Courtesy of yunaforum.com:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgaFOHnlAjs

    I am not sure which competition that was. To me, it looks as good, if not slightly better, than her 3S.

    ETA: I think it was 2009 4CC, LP warmup (she attempted it in the competition and fell).
    Last edited by yunasashafan; 05-01-2010 at 01:29 PM.

  12. #102
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    Wally, I think you are a bit overthinking this. I don't think the tech committee is accomodating Mao with the proposal. Actually consistent with your reasoning, maybe the tech guys are accomodating Yuna since they are giving one more point to 3/3. Anyway since you said the Japanese fed is not pushing this, I see no conspiracy here. And why should the tech committee accomodate Mao? she is the OSM, not the OGM.

    Overall I don't have any problem with the proposed changes except maybe the spiral sequence. I don't think the tech committee has any specific skater in mind when they propose the changes. It mayh seem to benefit Joubert and hurt Chan, but I think oerall the proposals advance skating which is a sport. On the surface the no three 2a may hurt YUna but giving extra 1 point for 3/3 will benefit her too. On the surface it may benefit Mao, but since her batting average for 3a is not that high, it may even hurt her.



    I agree from the POV spirals being used to enhance the program, and I too am bored with evvery skater doing the same spiral in the past few seasons.
    Me too. Especially since so many of the spiral sequences these days are so awful. It especially ruins a short program to have such an ugly and non-musical moment take up so much time.
    I like this rule. I'd worry that it will discourage girls from working on spirals but as far as I can tell COP only encourages women to get into horrible positions anyway because they seem to get full credit even if they look awful.
    I understand that the spirals are also about the steadiness of the edge and how long you can hold it. But who cares how long a skater holds a spiral if they look like they're in pain the whole time and cheating their back and hip placements just to get their legs a little higher? Ew.

    As for the 3a, I am not sure what to think. And I have a question (sorry if it's been answered but haven't seen it): Does the new rule mean that a woman can do two 3a in the SP? i.e. one in combo and one alone? If that's the case it would definitely give skaters like Mao a big advantage, although it would be pretty risky of her to try that in a short, no?

    I think we'd have to see how it would play out. Just because girls CAN do a 3a in the short doesn't mean they will necessarily think it would be advantageous to throw their eggs in that basket.
    What would someone like Mao do with that extra jump option? If she still had no 3-3 would she still be at at disadvantage because the 3 lutz-3T is still worth more than a 3a? This time she was able to do a 3a in her short AND a 2a. What would she do with her combo if she didn't have to worry about the 2a? I'm not so sure she would have SUCH an advantage over Yuna.
    And as for the other girls, Mao is already way ahead of them anyway when she skates clean. Some like Mirai could focus on getting her 3 lutz-3toe consistent and still potentially have an advantage of Mao in the short, no?
    Last edited by Layfan; 05-01-2010 at 01:47 PM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    As for the 3a, I am not sure what to think. And I have a question (sorry if it's been answered but haven't seen it): Does the new rule mean that a woman can do two 3a in the SP? i.e. one in combo and one alone? If that's the case it would definitely give skaters like Mao a big advantage, although it would be pretty risky of her to try that in a short, no?
    I think we'd have to see how it would play out. Just because girls CAN do a 3a in the short doesn't mean they will necessarily think it would be advantageous to throw their eggs in that basket.
    I do not think so. I believe the no-jump-can-be-repeated-in-the-short-program rule would still apply, as it applies to the solo and combination jumps (You can't do a 3F-2T and 3F).

    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    What would someone like Mao do with that extra jump option? If she still had no 3-3 would she still be at at disadvantage because the 3 lutz-3T is still worth more than a 3a? This time she was able to do a 3a in her short AND a 2a. What would she do with her combo if she didn't have to worry about the 2a? I'm not so sure she would have SUCH an advantage over Yuna.
    And as for the other girls, Mao is already way ahead of them anyway when she skates clean. Some like Mirai could focus on getting her 3 lutz-3toe consistent and still potentially have an advantage of Mao in the short, no?
    Mao can beneifit a lot if she put a 3-3 instead of her 3A-2T. A layout like 3F-3T, 3Lo, 3A would add almost 5 points to her base value compared to the 3A-2T,3F,2A layout she had last season. Without the 3-3, her gain would be on the order of 1.5 points.

  14. #104
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    O.K., I get what you are saying now, thanks for the clarification. Your argument has one critical flaw however. You are completely ignoring the strategic positioning of jump repetition in the overall construction of a LP. 2A+3T will automatically cross out a combo box and a wasted opportunity to repeat a more difficult jump in the program. I have explained these many times before so I will just have to refer you to how I answered these questions previously:
    No Wally I'm not because the skaters only get to repeat two jumps and get 3 combos. So the third combo is free. You can choose to add the triple toe to your easiest jump. And make your harder jumps you want to repeat, easier combinations. Plushenko's easiest jump was a double axel (because he wasn't doing the 3flip) so he could have done a double axel/3toe instead of his 4toe/3toe. And heck, if he had done the double axel/3toe at the end of his program and that's a much easier combination so that's more likely-his base value would have been HIGHER. Its fairly ridiculuos. If Plushenko wanted to repeat the 4toe, he could have done a 4toe/2toe instead a 3lutz/2toe. Ideally he'd add on a 2loop at the end of the double axel/3toe/2loop.. :lol:

    Frankly I don't think 10% bonus is enough for combinations. But its better than the current system.
    Last edited by bekalc; 05-01-2010 at 02:35 PM.

  15. #105
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    The only real way that the 3A rule will benefit Mao is that she can do the 3A now without worrying about a downgrade and losing all value. Plus I think this will encourage her to drop the 3A-2t and go for her 3-3 again.

    I think this may encourage Ladies to train the 3A since they now won't have to worry about losing a good 2A. This is something I've wanted since the Midori era because of that reason. But I also wouldn't limit women to just triples in the short either.

    I love the combo bonus because a combo is definitely harder then two solo jumps. What I wander is, if a half loop is considered a loop, could a skater do 3s-.5loop-3t as a combination (as their 3 jump combo) and then also do a 2a sequence? Just wishful thinking right?

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