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Thread: Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

  1. #106
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    Just a random thought- Don't you think 3toe/3loop is more difficult than 3loop/3toe? With the current system they're the same thing.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    Just a random thought- Don't you think 3toe/3loop is more difficult than 3loop/3toe? With the current system they're the same thing.
    Yeah, I would agree with that

  3. #108
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    This is really interesting.

    I'm not against these, rules however. Enabling a 3A is simply just allowing skaters to do what they can do. Not allowing skaters perform to their full potential is like saying to Leonardo da Vinci, "You can't paint people any more because you are so good at and most other people can't!" It's like a restrictive crutch when skaters can't do what they can do.

    The spiral proposition scared me a little at first, but now I am thinking that skaters can now take advantage of this and use in a good way. Shorter, more robust and edge-rich spirals could encourage them to hold better positions with more speed across the ice and give it a little joy instead of looking at it as another hurdle in the program. On the other hand, it could go completely the opposite way. :/

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    Just a random thought- Don't you think 3toe/3loop is more difficult than 3loop/3toe? With the current system they're the same thing.
    I think the new rule would be better if the ten percent bonus applied only to the second jump. For the first jump, if it is landed really well the skater can pick up some extra GOE and dose not need an increase in base value in addition. It is the second jump of a triple-triple that deserves a extra credit in the base value.

    Many skaters (especially men) can manage to tack on a scratchy 2T at the end of something even if the first jum,p is faulty. I do not see any reason why a skater should get an extra 10% for a triple Axel just because he threw up a 2T afterward.

    This would automatically give more points for a 3T+3Lo than for a 3Lo-3T. And it would substantially reward a triple-triple, while not having much effect on a triple-double.

    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    Shorter, more robust and edge-rich spirals could encourage them to hold better positions with more speed across the ice and give it a little joy instead of looking at it as another hurdle in the program.
    OT, but this gets my vote for the best-written sentence on this thread.

  5. #110
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I recall you disagreed with me and said it was about many skaters (and not a skater who retired the next year).
    Well, I probably overstated my position trying to win some kind of obscure debating point. What I think is that the forces within the ISU that were interested in making figure skating more TV friendly were very pleased to have Janet Lynn to front their cause, and might not have gotten anywhere without her at that time.

    On the other side of that debate, there has always been a party within the figure skating establishment that sees itself as the guardian of pure sport, never mind TV audiences. These folks attempt to hold the line against theatrical costumes, show-boat moves like back-flips and headbangers, popular music, and audience-pleasing gimmicks.

    About the current 3A debate, no, I don't think the new rule change will make the sport any richer or more popular. I think it is motivated more by the "higher, stronger, faster" side of things than by the "richer.".

    Are you suggesting that the 2A is no longer acceptable to TV and arena viewers and therefore ISU is making this bold move to increase skating's popularity?
    No. In fact, I think the double Axel is the most beautiful jump in skating. I saw Yuka Sato do one in an exhibition program to Amazing Grace that made me want to follow the composer of that song and quit the slave trade to become a preacher. (I did not need a triple flip to convince me of the error of my sinful ways.)

    In any case, the new rule will not make the double Axel go away. 99.9% of all skaters will do a double Axel in the short program. One or two will gamble with the triple instead and take their chances.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-01-2010 at 05:51 PM.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    The spiral proposition scared me a little at first, but now I am thinking that skaters can now take advantage of this and use in a good way. Shorter, more robust and edge-rich spirals could encourage them to hold better positions with more speed across the ice and give it a little joy instead of looking at it as another hurdle in the program. On the other hand, it could go completely the opposite way. :/
    yeah, but I think they should still make it a required element in SP. To me that's an element, alongside layback spin, distinguished ladies from men in figure skating. They could have adjusted the rule like the one for FS, instead of taking them completely out.

    As for limiting double axels to twice, some mediocre-level skaters surely will struggle with the rule. They will have a hard time organizing a good layout. I wish they just lowered the base value of 2A.
    Plus, I don't understand the idea of limiting the number of only a certain kind of jump, while some others still do four double loop programs. yeah, they only worth a little so it doesn't really matter score-wise, but if they are really pushing skaters for a well-balanced program, they are not doing it right.

  7. #112
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Aside from allowing men to do 2 Quads in the SP, which is interesting, I think these changes would be dumb.

    Spiral Sequences need to be changed in how they are scored, not removed.

    Removing a footwork sequence altogether from Men's SP? What?

    The LP needs to allow for more variety in the elements that can be executed, not the SP.

  8. #113
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    I like the changes to the jump options in the short program. It will definitely push the level of the sport for the skaters and the level of suspense for viewers. But, do these changes shorten the length of the programs? What are skaters going to do with that extra time? I feel that it may potentially decrease the number of transitions as skaters will probably use that time to set up for quad jumps (for men) and triple axel (for ladies). If that happens, then the judges need to really scrutinized that component in the PCS.
    One rule I wish the ISU would pass is an automatically one point deduction for omitting elements in the SP.

    I feel that there are rule changes that are simply unfair. I'm disappointed that the ISU is capping the number of entrants for world championships, decreasing the number of qualifiers for the free skate and that there are no substitutions for skaters who withdrawn before the free skate. That means less skating for us!!!!

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    The old short story "The Monkey's Paw" (the theme being that the results of a wish may not be what was expected) suddenly popped into mind when I read this. I don't know about "faux artistry", but if artistry were not a fundamental part of figure skating, it would lose its uniquely addictive appeal, and I suspect not just for me but for a majority of fans, both hardcore and general public. I'd probably stop following it and watch more golf or football, while skating would probably go the way of curling.

    And ironically, it's because of the artistry (faux or otherwise) that skating is not completely dominated by little girls (that and the age rule). As a rule, jumps don't age well, but artistry does.
    What 'artistry' the skaters have is what the choreographer told them to do. The little girls have no clue what a.rtistry is. It's the same old story that Figure Skating and Artistry go together, and that's why the technical is marked higher than the Program Component Score to give the little girls a chance at a medal. Tthere is no score for 'artistry'. if there is, show me where it is. It's what was called the Presentation Score from day 1

    Nowadays, it is called Program Component Score which covers much more than simply the artistry in the mind of the beholder. "Artistry", is in other words, an opinion which is tossed around in Forums as is flexibility.

  10. #115
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    I also heard about major changes on spins, as well. Skaters are not supposed to repeat the same form of spins in one program. Has anybody heard about the detail?

  11. #116
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    I cannot imagine ladeeez skating without spirals. It separates the women from the girlz. I hope they make certain spins mandatory. A layback should be. I want to see a true ballet back attitude, with leg position as classically done. I'd like to see the SP elements clearly defined and exactly the same for every skater. I can't say exactly now what I'd want to be done, but it would be wonderful to see the technique of each element done by every skater and watch how the judges score it. I know figures will not return but I wish they would. The best skaters from the old days had beautiful quality due to this very difficult discipline. I wish they'd make it a mandatory part of training under USFSA guinelines or ISU. I don't want to return to making it part of score like old system, but they really need to teach it.

  12. #117
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    1. How conceivable is it that several ladies will start landing triple axels? Right now, there are six women who've been credited with the jump and only one is still skating (I think we all assume Meissner's done competing). In terms of sheer physics/biology - is it actually possible that a significant minority of elite women will be successful with the triple axel? If not, then what's the point? How is it pushing the sport if it's simply not a realistic possibility.

    2. I (obviously) don't like the fixed base value for the second step sequence/spiral sequence. It makes no sense to me. Aren't they now doing the same thing to those elements that people complained that they were doing about the jumps?

  13. #118
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    OT, but this gets my vote for the best-written sentence on this thread.
    Thank you

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. How conceivable is it that several ladies will start landing triple axels? Right now, there are six women who've been credited with the jump and only one is still skating (I think we all assume Meissner's done competing). In terms of sheer physics/biology - is it actually possible that a significant minority of elite women will be successful with the triple axel? If not, then what's the point? How is it pushing the sport if it's simply not a realistic possibility.

    2. I (obviously) don't like the fixed base value for the second step sequence/spiral sequence. It makes no sense to me. Aren't they now doing the same thing to those elements that people complained that they were doing about the jumps?
    \
    I can asure yuu that by Sochi, you will see several russian girls will be landing 3A. Michin with help of talented russian coaches will make sure that wil happen. So i believe it is necessary to have this rule change as soon as possible.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    No Wally I'm not because the skaters only get to repeat two jumps and get 3 combos. So the third combo is free.
    Sorry, you obviously still don't get it. :sheesh: This will be the last time I will try to repeat this, yet again. The 3rd combo is not "free", your thinking is deeply flawed. An important objective of any good LP is to be able to squeeze as many jumps as possible, including Doubles, especially the Double Axels because they add up pretty quickly. Someone who spent 8 jumping passes and completed 1 Quad + 8 Triples + 1 Double Axel will be at a serious disadvantage vs. someone who did 1 Quad + 8 Triples + 3 Double Axels.

    What makes you think Plushenko's decision of adding a 3T behind his 4T was a good one? I certainly didn't say that. Put this in another way, he knows he wasn't getting any difficulty bonus for adding the 3T behind the 4T - whether this is fair or not, it doesn't matter since his objective was to win the Olympic Gold the only thing that made sense was to plan accordingly and work within the system. If he didn't plan to repeat the Quad - it was pointless in attaching a 3T behind it. Not only that, if he somehow makes mistakes on the 3T, even though his 4T was clean, he would end up getting dinged on the GOE based on the hardest jump in the combo and that means negative GOE at a factor 1.6 per -1 GOE. This along with his failure to do a 3 jump combo, which eventually cost him a Gold medal in Vancouver showed he deserved his defeat, hands down. So instead of screaming ridiculous here and there - the wiser thing to do is to work with the system. I could probably fill a whole page of things I don't like re: IJS but procrastination won't get me or you anywhere.

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