Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011 | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Major Changes Expected in Single Skating in 2010-2011

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I did read wally's post and what you are saying is not what I think he was implying.

I am a big fan of Mao's skating and admire her fighting spirit so if I don't agree with the rule change it is not because I am against Mao or for Yuna. Actually I am for Mirai :)

As to holding the sport back I find that absurd when only one skater is attempting a 3A in her SP.
If one wished to say it is holding Mao back it might feel more truthful to me.

Raising the value of the 3A (again) is not the same thing as changing the axel requirements in the SP.

I think you make a fair enough point that the rule changes might not benefit any particular skater but I can't help feeling the axel change is an attempt to do just that.

Janet thanks for the thoughtful post. I too am for Mirai. The new rules may benefit her b/c of the spiral sequence as stated by Wally. Who knows , maybe the ISU tech committee intended to help Mao (tht still is a big stretch to me). But then why? She is just the OSM, I would think the ISU tech committee will do everything possible to encourge the OGM stay 4 more yrs. I think even if the committee intended to help Mao, it may not happen in reality. She can not do two 3as in the sp, and currently she is already attempting one 3a in combination. If she follows the rule, she will be substituing the 3a for 2a that is all.

originally posted by Wallylutz
Not sure, with only 4 Triples to work with, she will end up having to either include the Triple Loop and risk an error on that jump or downgrade the 7th jumping pass to something like a Double Flip. That's about 5 points of TES that is at risk here. This is not a trivial change for her.

It the rule change forces Yuna to include the 3lo in her program that is not a bad thing for the sports. I for one am tired of the past 2 OGM being loopless in the competition. I guess in arakawa's case she missed the jump at olys, and Yuna was able to take advantage of the rules to exclude the triple loop. I am not advocating Tara like 3l/3l, but at the very least an OGM should be able to do a triple loop. This is good for the sports, and the sports is greater/ bigger than any one skater
 
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miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Janet thanks for the thoughtful post. I too am for Mirai. The new rules may benefit her b/c of the spiral sequence as stated by Wally. Who knows , maybe the ISU tech committee intended to help Mao (tht still is a big stretch to me). But then why? She is just the OSM, I would think the ISU tech committee will do everything possible to encourge the OGM stay 4 more yrs. I think even if the committee intended to help Mao, it may not happen in reality. She can not do two 3as in the sp, and currently she is already attempting one 3a in combination. If she follows the rule, she will be substituing the 3a for 2a that is all.

Couldn't it just be that some members on the tech committee do want to encourage risk-taking in jumps and that group won out in the end probably due to some compromises being made with some of the proposals made by other members? I don't think rules are intended to help any one skater. Benefits come as a side effect.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Couldn't it just be that some members on the tech committee do want to encourage risk-taking in jumps and that group won out in the end probably due to some compromises being made with some of the proposals made by other members? I don't think rules are intended to help any one skater. Benefits come as a side effect.

Totally agree, usually decisions from committees are a compromise. I think the tech guys had many things to consider,including some male skaters who were very open and vocal about the triple axel should have more base points ( and afterall these guys are landing 3/3 and triple axels they know at the skater's level). Other things in consideration include encouraging advancement of the sports. They also know Mao is the only female skater who is risking the 3a. The new rules allow her and all skaters to substitute the triple a for the 2a, it potentially helps other skaters and not that much for Mao, who has already put 3a in her sp.

Even if I try to be cynical, I can't think of one reason why ISU is doing this for Mao? She has declared she will stay 4 more yrs, therefore the TV ratings is already factored in. If ISu is doing rule changes for TV ratings, I would think they will change the rules for Yuna because they want her to stay 4 more yrs
 
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Figure88

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
^ This rule change does not really benefit Mao Asada very much at all.

Here is her present jump layout:

3A+2T
3F
2A

18.5 points in base value

Under the new rules she could do

3F+2T
3Lo
3A

20.0 points.

The only thing she gains is the difference between a triple loop and a double Axel.

However, it would make for a better program. Mao -- or any skater of the future who might come along -- could concentrate on doing a really good triple Axel without worrying about doing it in combination or out of footwork. Then she could concentrate on doing a really nice 3F+2T and a pretty 3Lo. To me, it is the audience that is the big gainer -- they get to see a better-constructed program.

As for Yu-na Kim, with

3Lz+3T
3F
2A

19.0 points in base values, before GOEs,

she has nothing to fear from the new rules.

That's true. Mao needs a 3-3 to take full advantage of the new rule change. Also, you might consider that under the new changes, since she no longer has to perform a 3A in combo, it might free up her energy to perform a 3-3.
 
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rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
That's true. Mao needs a 3-3 to take full advantage of the new rule change. Also, you might consider that under the new changes, since she no longer has to perform a 3A in combo, she might have more energy to perform a 3-3.

Mao needs 3/3, fix the flutz, and put 3 sal in her programs. I don't think doing a well executed 3a takes any less energy than doing a 3a/2t (although I am not a skater). It seems like putting a 2t as part of a combo is really not that taxing for most skater. The new rules potentially reward many skaters.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Couldn't it just be that some members on the tech committee do want to encourage risk-taking in jumps and that group won out in the end probably due to some compromises being made with some of the proposals made by other members? I don't think rules are intended to help any one skater. Benefits come as a side effect.

What's curious is if you recall, there was a recent thread here where the head of JSF was publicly calling for the inclusion of 3A as an option in lieu of 2A. The public statement went as far as saying this is good for the sport and that it would prevent Mao's jump being accidentally voided like it happened in the Rostelecom SP last Fall. Yet, such proposal is no where to be found among the ISU Congress Agenda for June. So the question is: "Did Japan suddenly decide they weren't going to propose for such change? Then why was he calling for such a change just a month ago?" And then magically, such change was already included in by the ISU Technical Committee for Single & Pair Skating, which is highly unusual to say the least, completely inconsistent with the way ISU typically works on the subject of jump requirements for SP. If you read through the Congress Agenda, each Member have their sets of proposals to make. The only things Japan has to say is some trivial administrative matter whereas other countries, including some tiny nobody up to the big & powerful federations had a lot more to say. Russia for example is pushing to eliminate the drop of highest & lowest marks. Predictable, eh? B/C that thing really prevented Russia from "dealing" with other countries in the old fashioned way, hence unable to buy votes in Ice Dance, hence losing the Gold in Vancouver. That proposal is a long shot at best, nevertheless, it's obviously important to Russia and they are going to raise it. Canada and USA all have their proposals which are more than trivial and which they hope to see pass. So in comparison, Japan seems awfully quiet. To me, this just seems odd.

I'd be very surprised if this change wasn't brought about because of a specific skater and a specific skating federation. Otherwise, there is just no justification for it whatsoever or else, they would have eliminated the restriction on no Quads for women in the SP along with it if the intent, as many people have naively claimed here, is to allow the women to explore their potentials. Why prohibit women from doing Quads in the SP, eh? But the restriction is there and still not lifted. Didn't Miki Ando do a Quad a while ago? Can't a hypothetical supergirl suddenly come along and start to land Quads? All those arguments seem suspect when you consider the fact that Quad is not allowed in the SP for women in any shape or form. Call me cynical, I don't believe this change was made to benefit the sport, in fact, there are some serious concerns for such a change that not many coaches in their sound mind would agree even though this may delight the casual fans who has never wear skates in their whole life or probably never even been to a rink.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Couldn't it just be that some members on the tech committee do want to encourage risk-taking in jumps and that group won out in the end probably due to some compromises being made with some of the proposals made by other members? I don't think rules are intended to help any one skater. Benefits come as a side effect.

Thinking it over - and reading mathman's last post seems to show there is not such a big advantage to Mao or any particular skater with these rule changes.

The axel rule does give Mao more flexibilty in the SP but without a 3x3 her advantage is not such a big deal.

Still, I think this is a big break from skating tradition and I believe if Mao was able to do a good 3L this rule would not have happened.

The problem for me is that only Mao is attempting a 3A in her SP and ISU has not historically changed jump requirements in the SP for only one skater. Say what you will about the future and moving the sport forward - but the simple truth is that in all the years since Midori first showed her 3A the jump has proven too difficult for 99% of Lady skaters.

Maybe it will change in the future and with strenous off-ice training more Ladies will develope the strength to do the 3A. In all honesty I fail to see how that will be so positive for skating.
I would still rather see a Lady skater doing the five traditional triple jumps plus 2A than a skater who has the 3A but is unable to perform the other triples.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Mao needs 3/3, fix the flutz, and put 3 sal in her programs. I don't think doing a well executed 3a takes any less energy than doing a 3a/2t (although I am not a skater). It seems like putting a 2t as part of a combo is really not that taxing for most skater. The new rules potentially reward many skaters.

There's nothing new here. Mao would have to do these things with or without these new rules. I think it's better if she opt to not to do the 3a in combination because the judges do not seem to like this combo and often downgrade her 3A in her combo. Based on the results of the past season, Mao single 3A were usually ratified unless she stepped out/ fell. It's the 3A in combo that would get UR even if she landed it. By just doing a single 3A she can add more transitions such as steps leading up to it to earn more GOE.
 
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rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Thinking it over - and reading mathman's last post seems to show there is not such a big advantage to Mao or any particular skater with these rule changes.

The axel rule does give Mao more flexibilty in the SP but without a 3x3 her advantage is not such a big deal.

Still, I think this is a big break from skating tradition and I believe if Mao was able to do a good 3L this rule would not have happened.

The problem for me is that only Mao is attempting a 3A in her SP and ISU has not historically changed jump requirements in the SP for only one skater. Say what you will about the future and moving the sport forward - but the simple truth is that in all the years since Midori first showed her 3A the jump has proven too difficult for 99% of Lady skaters.

I would still rather see a Lady skater doing the five traditional triple jumps plus 2A than a skater who has the 3A but is unable to perform the other triples.

OK Janet fan, I will play, why does ISU do this just for Mao? She is really that popular? I thought Yuna is more popular.


originally posted by Wallylutz
I'd be very surprised if this change wasn't brought about because of a specific skater and a specific skating federation. Otherwise, there is just no justification for it whatsoever or else, they would have eliminated the restriction on no Quads for women in the SP along with it if the intent, as many people have naively claimed here, is to allow the women to explore their potentials. Why prohibit women from doing Quads in the SP, eh? But the restriction is there and still not lifted. Didn't Miki Ando do a Quad a while ago? Can't a hypothetical supergirl suddenly come along and start to land Quads? All those arguments seem suspect when you consider the fact that Quad is not allowed in the SP for women in any shape or form. Call me cynical, I don't believe this change was made to benefit the sport, in fact, there are some serious concerns for such a change that not many coaches in their sound mind would agree even though this may delight the casual fans who has never wear skates in their whole life or probably never even been to a rink.

OK, I will play along in this conspiracy theory. So why does ISU do it for Mao at the expense ofr Miki? Allowing 3a and forbidding quad jumps. If one is skeptical about ISU bowing to pressure of a federation, is Japan fed really tht powerful? And are we saying that Japan fed is sacrificing Miki for Mao?
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
OK Janet fan, I will play, why does ISU do this just for Mao? She is really that popular? I thought Yuna is more popular.

OK, I will play along in this conspiracy theory. So why does ISU do it for Mao at the expense ofr Miki? Allowing 3a and forbidding quad jumps. If one is skeptical about ISU bowing to pressure of a federation, is Japan fed really tht powerful? And are we saying that Japan fed is sacrificing Miki for Mao?

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?31807-Axel-in-SP&p=494238&viewfull=1#post494238

hurrah said:
http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/fla...100329088.html

Says that Japanese Fed will appeal to ISU for a rule change to allow a choice of 3-axel instead of 2-axel in the SP.

Yoshioka Director (?) of JSF says that they want to make the rule the same as men's and that 'as long as there is a skater who can do it, the rule should be changed'.... It will prevent a situation such as happened at Russia Cup, where Mao's 2-axel was discounted because her 3-axel was called on under-rotation.

I do think that as long as men are allowed, it should be allowed for women. If it's not going to be allowed for women, then men should not be allowed to have a choice of 2-axel/3-axel.

真央ちゃんに有利に?日本がSPのルール変更提案へ

 フィギュアスケートで浅田真央(中京大)が武器とするトリプルアクセル(3回転半ジャンプ)がより正当に評価されるよう、日本スケート連盟が6月の国際スケート連盟(ISU)総会(バルセロナ)で女子ショートプログラム(SP)のルール変更を提案することが29日、分かった。採用されれば、女子で唯一3回転半を武器とする浅田に有利となる可能性が高い。

 日本連盟の吉岡伸彦フィギュア強化部長がイタリアのトリノで明らかにしたもので、「2回転半ジャンプ」となっている現行の必須課題を男子と同じ「2回転半、または3回転半」と変えるよう要望する。吉岡部長は「できる選手がいる以上、許すべきだ」と根拠を示し、得点アップへ「可能性も広がる」と期待感を込めた。

 提案が認められれば、浅田は今季3回転半―2回転で跳んだ連続ジャンプを、基礎点がより高い2連続3回転ジャンプに置き換えることができ、大技の3回転半と合わせて男子のトップ選手に匹敵する構成が実現する。

 また、3回転半に失敗して2回転半となり、後に跳んだ2回転半が規定違反で0点になった、昨年10月のロシア杯のような事態も回避できる。



No conspiracy theory required, this public statement is conclusive as to both the intention and the action of JSF. This was dated March 29, 2010. The statement even specifically mentioned the ISU Congress in June, which also implied the change was going to be proposed and happen in that specific event. And here, we have this information package for the June Congress agenda that already includes such change, voila!
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
<<日本がSPのルール変更提案へ>>

So where is JSF proposal in the June Congress agenda? It is mysteriously absent. Anyone care to explain such mysterious absence? rtureck perhaps, since he/she seems to have all the answers.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
<<日本がSPのルール変更提案へ>>

So where is JSF proposal in the June Congress agenda? It is mysteriously absent. Anyone care to explain such mysterious absence? rtureck perhaps, since he/she seems to have all the answers.

Come on Wally, I don't have answers just questions. Ok I will play along and agree that the Japan fed is behind all this, and the ISU bow to them. But why, does Japan fed sacrifice Miki for Mao then? And I stil have the question, is Japan fed really that powerful?

BTW, do you care to translate the Japanese/ Korean/ or Asian text in your previous posts
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Come on Wally, I don't have answers just questions. Ok I will play along and agree that the Japan fed is behind all this, and the ISU bow to them. But why, does Japan fed sacrifice Miki for Mao then? And I stil have the question, is Japan fed really that powerful?

BTW, do you care to translate the Japanese/ Korean/ or Asian text in your previous posts

The article is in Japanese. The title of the article: "Does this favor Mao-chan? Japan to propose rule changes in the SP"

You can also read the goldenskate thread referenced for more information since that topic was discussed at length there.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Also, you might consider that under the new changes, since she no longer has to perform a 3A in combo, it might free up her energy to perform a 3-3.

To me, that would be totally amazing, it would represent a big jump in women's figure skating, and any skater who was able to include such a jump layout would rightly deserve to be at the top of the standings going into the LP.

3A
3F+3T
3Lo

:rock: She's got my vote! (I hope Rachael Flatt does this next year.)
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
You're making a leap stating that wallylutz is implying that Ando's being sacrificed for Asada. It's worth mentioning that (a) if you believe wallylutz, the way the ISU is going about this differs significantly from previous proposals and (b) that if it's to push the sport forward, it doesn't really make sense to limit quads for ladies. After all, one lady has landed them (years ago and she doesn't land them now, hence why it's not really sacrificing one for another).

As for the Japanese Fed being powerful, I have to admit I'm curious myself.
 

rtureck

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
You're making a leap stating that wallylutz is implying that Ando's being sacrificed for Asada. It's worth mentioning that (a) if you believe wallylutz, the way the ISU is going about this differs significantly from previous proposals and (b) that if it's to push the sport forward, it doesn't really make sense to limit quads for ladies. After all, one lady has landed them (years ago and she doesn't land them now, hence why it's not really sacrificing one for another).

As for the Japanese Fed being powerful, I have to admit I'm curious myself.
Sorry, I am not implying Wallylutz advocated that Japan fed is sacrificing Miki for Mao. I am just thinking if 3a is allowed and quad not allowed than Miki potentially is lmited

Anyway, there are more rules change than 3a. I am curious with the rule change in spiral who benefit / suffer. Out of the top lady skaters who has the best/ highest amd worst scoring spiral sequence under current rule. ( I think Caro usually scores decent with her spirals?)

I agree with a previous poster, it does not seem like ladeez skating without spirals.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Oh me too. What will Chan do with the limited step sequence? Will he say "hell with it" and go for the quad? How does this push the sport forward? Spiral question is interesting. Someone posted a really in depth look early this season about the previous season in terms of scores/GOEs. Does anyone know where that went?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
No conspiracy theory required, this public statement is conclusive as to both the intention and the action of JSF. This was dated March 29, 2010. The statement even specifically mentioned the ISU Congress in June, which also implied the change was going to be proposed and happen in that specific event. And here, we have this information package for the June Congress agenda that already includes such change, voila!

Still, I am having trouble working up my righteous indignation. The Japanese Federation pushed for this change. They got the ISU technical committee to consider the idea, and it eventually passed the committee. Therefore the Japanese Federation had no need to submit the proposal to the full congress.

I guess my sense of outrage has become dulled. This sounds like business as usual to me.

To me, the emphasis of the debate should be on the merits of the proposal, not on the wickedness of those sly Japanese. (Now, the wickedness of those sly Russians -- that's another story altogether! ;) )
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill in this triple Axel discussion.

Ladies are already permitted to do triple Axels, if they are able. They are already permitted to do two triple Axels in the long program. They are already permitted to do a triple Axel in the short program, either in combination or out of footwork. The only change in the proposed rules is to add "or as a substitute for the double Axel" to the previous sentence.

I do not think that this change will cause a sudden rush of young skaters and their coaches to say, well, I didn't give two hoots about the triple Axel when it was allowed only twice in the LP and once in the SP substituting for another jump in combination or out of footwork. But -- whoa -- now I can substitute if for the double Axel in the SP!!! That's for me!

I also do not see how the discussion of how few ladies can do a fully rotated triple Axel is relevant. If nobody can take advantage of the new rule, that's life. If a few adventurous souls want to try, more power to 'em.



OT -- a challenger to 100yen's "best sentence" crown. :rock:

I agree with you that the 3A rule change will have only a mild effect on the results of competition, which is why I've stayed out of that discussion. My only concern is that pushing the physical envelope inevitably has an effect on injuries, it's just a matter of where that tipping point happens to be. You could be right that we've haven't reached it with the particular change in question, but if the trend outraces physical capacity at some stage, then it may have to be dealt with in retrospect, but only after the damage has been already been done to a lot of skaters. That aspect should always be seriously thought out, is all I'm saying.

Appreciate the award. I'd like to thank my mother, my agency, and all the little people that have assisted me along the way...:laugh:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Oh me too. What will Chan do with the limited step sequence? Will he say "hell with it" and go for the quad? How does this push the sport forward? Spiral question is interesting. Someone posted a really in depth look early this season about the previous season in terms of scores/GOEs. Does anyone know where that went?

About the spiral and step sequence changes, my interpretation is that the ISU wants steps, turns and moves in the field like spirals to become part of general skating, rather than specific scored elements.

I agree with this principle. When a skater comes to a complete stop at the end of the rink, takes a deep breath and announces to the world "now I am going to do my step sequence ... ... OK, now I am finished with my step sequencethat, let's go back to jum,ping" -- that just takes away the whole idea of an integrated, well-choreographed program.

Same with the spiral sequence. "Now I am going to do my spiral sequence. Three seconds forward, awkwardly grab foot, three seconds backward, three seconds dog-and-hydrant burlesque -- next up, my triple Salchow."
 
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