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Thread: + 3loop combos- thing of the past under CoP?

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    + 3loop combos- thing of the past under CoP?

    In Major Changes Expected in Single Skating 2010/11 thread, difficulty of combination jumps that end with a 3 loop came up in the topic and I thought I'd open a new thread as it was getting off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    Just a random thought- Don't you think 3toe/3loop is more difficult than 3loop/3toe? With the current system they're the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the new rule would be better if the ten percent bonus applied only to the second jump. For the first jump, if it is landed really well the skater can pick up some extra GOE and dose not need an increase in base value in addition. It is the second jump of a triple-triple that deserves a extra credit in the base value.

    Many skaters (especially men) can manage to tack on a scratchy 2T at the end of something even if the first jum,p is faulty. I do not see any reason why a skater should get an extra 10% for a triple Axel just because he threw up a 2T afterward.

    This would automatically give more points for a 3T+3Lo than for a 3Lo-3T. And it would substantially reward a triple-triple, while not having much effect on a triple-double.
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    In theory, it's the same. But in reality, doing the 3Lo as the 2nd jump would most likely earn an extra bullet point for GOE due to difficult entry into the jump element. It may not be much but it should add up to about +1 in GOE more than the 3Lo+3T combo.
    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    Re: loop combo vs. toe combo



    I hope that's the case. However I remember in most cases the 3loop combos not getting as much GOE as 3toe combos, probably as the former tend not to (by nature? I don't know I'm just guessing) cover as much ice, and the landing tend not to go as smoothly. I think the difficulty of doing a loop jump at all ('difficult entry' as you say) should be rewarded, but I'm not sure if it is.

    Miki Ando 2007 Worlds SP 3lutz/3LOOP, receiving GOE+0.86 (11.86)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJcbA...eature=related

    Yu-na Kim 2007 Worlds SP 3flip/3toe, receiving GOE+2.0 (11.50)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-8A7f6bZ34

    http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2007/..._SP_scores.pdf

    *Obviously Yu-na's wonderful 3flip/3toe has so much height in both jumps, speed in and out, etc. I'm just saying it must be much more difficult ('by nature' like I said above) to do the same with a loop combo.

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    Now, don't you think it's unfortunate that +3loop combos are not getting love from the judges as:
    • because of the 'pre rotation' nature of the loop jump, it's more UR prone
    • often doesn't cover a lot of ice nor does it have smooth landings because you can't gain extra kick and rather you have to rely on the momentum of the landing of the first jump solely
    • therefore higher risk for UR, not much potential for +GOEs


    ?

    Also, can you think of really well executed +3loop jumps from the past? I remember Midori Ito's 2lp/3lp (and to think 3lp/2lp would technically receive the same score under CoP is just ??) was phenomenal. Didn't Kurt Browning do 3sal/3loop? Dan Hollander?

    Your thoughts and examples?
    Last edited by hikki; 05-02-2010 at 08:07 AM.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Would anyone argue that the 3Lz is more difficult than a 3A?

    Yet Yuna typically receives higher GOE for her 3Lz than Mao does for her 3A.

    GOE = grade of execution. The GOE points are awarded for how well a jump is executed. A wonderfully executed 2A will receive more GOE than a mediocre 3Lo.

    Your point would seem to require another way of awarding points:

    GOD - as in grade of difficulty. That already exists for single jumps in their base values

    A 3Lo as the second jump in a combo has a higher base value than a 3T. How well a skater executes these jumps is what determines their points for GOE.

    If as you seem to be suggesting that a 3Lo is more difficult as a second jump in a combo and therefore deserves more points the argument could also be made that the 3A is more difficult than the 3L and somehow needs more points.

    That is where base values come in and we know the 3A has a higher base value than the 3Lz.

    It would seem if Miki pulled off a 3Lz+ 3Lo that had the same quality that Yuna shows in her 3Lz+ 3T that Miki would be rewarded with good GOE.
    As we saw this season that wasn't the case. Yuna's combo was typically spectacular and Miki's was not.

    Why should Miki get more points for not executing a difficult combo jump very well? It's the same for Mao and her borderline 3A's where the judges are typically deciding whether Mao even completed the 3A let alone giving her GOE for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Would anyone argue that the 3Lz is more difficult than a 3A?

    Yet Yuna typically receives higher GOE for her 3Lz than Mao does for her 3A.

    GOE = grade of execution. The GOE points are awarded for how well a jump is executed. A wonderfully executed 2A will receive more GOE than a mediocre 3Lo.

    Your point would seem to require another way of awarding points:

    GOD - as in grade of difficulty. That already exists for single jumps in their base values

    A 3Lo as the second jump in a combo has a higher base value than a 3T. How well a skater executes these jumps is what determines their points for GOE.

    If as you seem to be suggesting that a 3Lo is more difficult as a second jump in a combo and therefore deserves more points the argument could also be made that the 3A is more difficult than the 3L and somehow needs more points.

    That is where base values come in and we know the 3A has a higher base value than the 3Lz.

    It would seem if Miki pulled off a 3Lz+ 3Lo that had the same quality that Yuna shows in her 3Lz+ 3T that Miki would be rewarded with good GOE.
    As we saw this season that wasn't the case. Yuna's combo was typically spectacular and Miki's was not.

    Why should Miki get more points for not executing a difficult combo jump very well? It's the same for Mao and her borderline 3A's where the judges are typically deciding whether Mao even completed the 3A let alone giving her GOE for it.
    I really do not think it is fair to compare toe combo and loop combo at the same level. There is no way anyone can do 3-3loop as well as 3-3t. It is ridiculous to compare Yuna's 3-3T with Miki or anyone else's 3-3l combos. Even male skaters can not execute 3L combo as well. 3Lcombos are simply DIFFICULT to do. There is no toe assistance to pick up the momentum to go up higher. i have done double combinations myself and I know loop combinations were much much harder to do than toe combos. I have a feeling that no one wants to even try 3-3L combos. It is just not worth it.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think the argument is that the second jump in a combination is not only more difficult than that same jump done solo, it is also more difficult than the same jump performed as the first jump of a combination. This should be reflected in the base scores.

    The ISU could modify the proposed new rule about combos like this: give a 10% bonus to the first jump and a 20% bonus to the second jump.

    Or -- my preference -- do not give any extra credit for the first jump, but give a bonus in base value for the second jump.

    The reason that I like this better than the ISU's proposal is that there is already a built-in bonus for doing a triple-triple of any kind. You get in an extra triple jump and save a jumping pass in which you can grab extra points (by throwing in a double Axel at the end, for instance).
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-02-2010 at 09:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROKOFIEV View Post
    I really do not think it is fair to compare toe combo and loop combo at the same level. There is no way anyone can do 3-3loop as well as 3-3t. It is ridiculous to compare Yuna's 3-3T with Miki or anyone else's 3-3l combos. Even male skaters can not execute 3L combo as well. 3Lcombos are simply DIFFICULT to do. There is no toe assistance to pick up the momentum to go up higher. i have done double combinations myself and I know loop combinations were much much harder to do than toe combos. I have a feeling that no one wants to even try 3-3L combos. It is just not worth it.
    Why is it ridiculous to compare a 3Lz+3T to a 3Lz+3Lo?
    That seems to be the topic.....

    Some fans were upset with Laura winning bronze at Worlds and felt her 3T+3T was overrated.
    Was it overrated - or was it extremely well executed, and that is why it received good GOE.

    I would typically rather see an element that has been well executed rather than a difficult element performed poorly.

    When Yuna shows her spectacular combo she receives big GOE. If Miki would show the same quality on a more difficult combo then she would recieve a bigger score.

    But you seem to be saying Miki should get the points even with lesser quality. I disagree.
    If you think the rules need to be changed and combo jumps should be graded differently then I might agree with you. And would sequences have to be considered too?

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    I don't think bad judging has anything to do with 3loop combinations not getting ratified.
    More than anything, it has to be under rotations and wonky landings.

    Here are examples I consider as well executed 3loop combos.

    1. Tara Lipinski 98 Olys LP:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PI40...eature=related
    Slow mo replay at 5:40

    2. Yagudin performs a quad toe triple toe triple loop in a practice.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkkG_...eature=related

    If skaters could perform the 3loop as well as it's done in these clips , judges will definitely ratify them IMO.
    Last edited by RumbleFish; 05-02-2010 at 09:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Why is it ridiculous to compare a 3Lz+3T to a 3Lz+3Lo?
    That seems to be the topic.....

    If you think the rules need to be changed and combo jumps should be graded differently then I might agree with you. And would sequences have to be considered too?
    Yes, I think it is the last part that needs attention.

    The example of the original poster was a 3T+3Lo versus a 3Lo-3T. Under both the current rules and the proposed bonus rule, these two combos get the same base value. Yet the first one is much harder than the second.

    The other example was Midori Ito's 2Lo+3Lo, versus a 3Lo-2Lo.

    (If I remember correctly, however, Nancy Kerrigan had a devil of a time doing a 3Lo+2T one year when a 3Lo combination was required in the SP. She switched to a 2T+3Lo and it came out fine.)

    You could also compare, say,

    3Lz+3T
    3Lo

    with

    3Lz+3Lo
    3T

    The first program is harder for most skaters, but both layouts get the same base value.

    One change I would be very much in favor of would be to eliminate the 20% penalty for sequences. This would allow skaters to do stuff like 3S+half loop+3F (!) and get full credit.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yes, I think it is the last part that needs attention.

    The example of the original poster was a 3T+3Lo versus a 3Lo-3T. Under both the current rules and the proposed bonus rule, these two combos get the same base value. Yet the first one is much harder than the second.

    The other example was Midori Ito's 2Lo+3Lo, versus a 3Lo-2Lo.

    (If I remember correctly, however, Nancy Kerrigan had a devil of a time doing a 3Lo+2T one year when a 3Lo combination was required in the SP. She switched to a 2T+3Lo and it came out fine.)

    You could also compare, say,

    3Lz+3T
    3Lo

    with

    3Lz+3Lo
    3T

    The first program is harder for most skaters, but both layouts get the same base value.

    One change I would be very much in favor of would be to eliminate the 20% penalty for sequences. This would allow skaters to do stuff like 3S+half loop+3F (!) and get full credit.
    I agree with you and the point of the original poster. But I don't think under the current rules poorly executed jump combos deserve more GOE points just because they are more difficult.

    There is also some consideration needed because this level of difficulty is far from universal.
    Yuna does an Ina Bauer into a 2A. Mirai does an Ina Bauer preceeding a 3 Loop.

    Which is harder? And should one get more points based on the difficulty each has with this move - or wouldn't it be more fair to score them by the rules.

    Caro has shown some great 3x3's in her career yet i always found her 2A to be quite mediocre.
    I could go on but Miki's great 3Loop should not somehow be worth more than what the rules state simply because Yuna is not currently doing a 3 Loop.

    I think this idea of what is harder when it gets to the combo aspect is kind of tricky.
    What is being missed here is that if Miki would land a spectacular 3Lz+3Lo she would outscore Yuna's 3Lz+3T.

    The problem is that it just doesn't happen anymore. Will giving the 3Lz+3Lo more points make Miki more successful at it? How many skaters even attempt this combo jump? It feels again like the new axel rule in the SP.

    Wouldn't it be nice for Laura if anyone who did a 3T+3T and jumped noticably higher on the second triple would get additional bonus points for it. We can all pick our favorite skater, find their best and most consistent move and lobby for more points.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GfZW03lM4

    This was one of my favorite loop combination. Great flow into the jump and out of the jump too.Not to mention great height. I miss loop combinations...

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    If Miki would show the same quality on a more difficult combo then she would recieve a bigger score.

    But you seem to be saying Miki should get the points even with lesser quality. I disagree.
    If you think the rules need to be changed and combo jumps should be graded differently then I might agree with you. And would sequences have to be considered too?
    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    I don't think bad judging has anything to do with 3loop combinations not getting ratified.
    More than anything, it has to be under rotations and wonky landings.

    Here are examples I consider as well executed 3loop combos.

    1. Tara Lipinski 98 Olys LP:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PI40...eature=related
    Slow mo replay at 5:40

    2. Yagudin performs a quad toe triple toe triple loop in a practice.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkkG_...eature=related

    If skaters could perform the 3loop as well as it's done in these clips , judges will definitely ratify them IMO.
    Janefan, I agree about combo jumps needing to be graded differently, which was my point with the 3lp/3toe vs. 3toe/3lp. I like Mathman's idea.

    Later I expressed my opinion that +3loop combos typically do not attract higher GOEs, not so much because they are done poorly, but because of the nature of the jump (noe assistance of the extra kick, etc. as PROKOFIEV says).

    I'm talking about these two GOE features.
    • Covers good distance of ice and has good height
    • The landing flows, with good speed in and out


    I don't know how a loop jump can cover as much ice. As for the landing, in order not to get an UR, don't you have to 'overrotate' a bit, so you compensate for the prerotation? So the flow might sacrifice.

    Thank you RumbleFish for your examples. Wow, Yagudin's 4-3-3 is amazing! I suspect however if the judges would've given GOE+ for the two points I made above. He doesn't cover much ice, and the flow is not all that good.

    Genie, I like that combo as well- especially with the ice coverage (for a loop combo). That combo received GOE+ 1.57, which is very good. In this competition, Yuna's gorgeous 3flip/3toe, which I don't think is any inferior to her +3toe combos in the '10 season, "only" received +1.43.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzE7bh8Wa-Q
    Humm... the judges consensus has changed since the '08 season, or Yuna's +3toe combos dramatically improved/ Mao's 3loop combos deteriorated (well actually it did :-( )

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    Janefan,I'm talking about these two GOE features.
    • Covers good distance of ice and has good height
      [*]The landing flows, with good speed in and out
    That is why, in particular, a combination like 2A+2Lo+2Lo should be disallowed altogether. Those two 2-loops just look stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Nancy's 2toe/3loop
    Wow I didn't know she did this. I'll have to check it out on youtube!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    Wow I didn't know she did this. I'll have to check it out on youtube!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYqH_40CtdY - 1991 Worlds. Can't tell but think she did it there...but it looks more like a 2Z-3T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYqH_40CtdY - 1991 Worlds. Can't tell but think she did it there...but it looks more like a 2Z-3T.

    Thanks for the link. I remember watching this. It was 2lutz/3toe, which was very nice.

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