+ 3loop combos- thing of the past under CoP?

Re: On the Half Loop

draqq said:

They actually fixed part of this in the recent ISU Communication 1611 (on the last page):

In Jump Combinations/Sequences Half-loop (or “Euler”) (landing backwards) will be a listed jump. Consequently the units “half-loop + Salchow/Flip” and “any jump landed backwards outside + halfloop + Salchow/Flip” will become jump combinations of 2 or 3 jumps correspondingly. Half-loop will have the Base Value and the GOE values of the single loop jump and will be identified by the Technical Panel to the Judges and in the Protocols as “1Lo”.​

So a 3S+1Lo(Euler)+3F will just count as a three-jump combination instead of a sequence.

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Jump combinations like that still aren't given enough credit. Nobody is going to do a half-loop into a Triple Flip on the end of a jump rather than just attemping a Triple Toeloop with the way the rules is written right now. The half-loop taking up a combination slot is problematic. Why do a jump that only scores you .5 when you can do a Double Loop that scores 1.8?

This is the system they should be using to properly score combination jumps:

*First Jump (for less than a Triple Axel) - receives no bonus if the second jump is a single, 5% bonus if it’s a Double, 10% bonus if it’s a Triple, 15% bonus if it’s a Quad.

*First Jump (for a Triple Axel or Quad) - receives no bonus if the second jump is a single, 10% bonus if it’s a Double, 15% bonus if it’s a Triple, 20% bonus if it’s a Quad.

*Second Jump (if it is a Toeloop or Salchow) - receives a 10% bonus if the first jump was less than a Double Axel, 15% bonus if the first jump was less than a Triple Axel, 20% bonus if the first jump was a Triple Axel or Quad.

*Second Jump (if it is a Loop or Flip) - receives a 15% bonus if the first jump was less than a Triple Loop, 20% bonus if the first jump was a Triple Loop, Flip, or Lutz, 30% bonus if the first jump was a Triple Axel or Quad.

*Third Jump - automatically receives a 10% bonus. If it is a single jump there is no additional no bonus. If it is a Double the entire combination receives a 5% bonus. If it is a Triple the entire combination receives a 10% bonus. If it is a Quad (when cows fly...) the entire combination receives a 15% bonus.

*In a three jump combination, the third jump must be of a different type than the second jump or have a different, difficult arm position in the air. If this requirement is not met, no extra bonus points will be gained.

*If a jump combination uses a half-loop to connect jumps, the half-loop shall not count as one of the jumps in the combination in terms of scoring. Example: a Triple Toeloop-half loop-Triple Salchow is considered a 2 jump combination and a Triple Toeloop-Triple Toeloop-half loop-Triple Salchow would be considered a 3 jump combination.

*For jump sequences (defined by a maximum of 3 steps and/or hops between jumps and no back crossovers), there will be a penalty of 5% rather than any bonuses. If a skater does a 2-jump combination and adds a third jump in sequence, the first two jumps will still receive the combination bonus but the third jump will receive the 5% penalty.

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And they need to lower the base value of the jumps themselves to compensate for these bonuses. I have a table of values for that too!

4Lutz - 12.7 (-2.5, +1.0 for GOE)
4Flip - 12.2 (-2.4, +1.0 for GOE)
4Loop - 11.8 (-2.3, +1.0 for GOE)
4Sal - 10.2 (-2.0, +1.0 for GOE)
4Toe - 9.8 (-1.9, +1.0 for GOE)

3Axel - 8.0 (-1.6, +1.0 for GOE)
3Lutz - 5.5 (-1.2, +.8 for GOE)
3Flip - 5.0 (-1.1, +.8 for GOE)
3Loop - 4.6 (-1.1, +.8 for GOE)
3Sal - 3.6 (-.9, +.7 for GOE)
3Toe - 3.4 (-.9, +.7 for GOE)

2Axel - 2.5 (-.7, -.7, -.6, +.7 for GOE)
2Lutz - 1.6 (-.5, -.4, -.4, +.5 for GOE)
2Flip - 1.4 (-.4, +.5 for GOE)
2Loop - 1.4 (-.4, -.4, -.3 +.5 for GOE)
2Sal - 1.0 (.-3, -.3, -.2, +.5 for GOE)
2Toe - 1.0 (-.3, -.3, -.2, +.5 for GOE)

1Axel - .8 (-.2, +.5 for GOE)
1Lutz - .4 (-.1, +.2 for GOE)
1Flip - .3 (-.1, +.2 for GOE)
1Loop - .3 (-.1, +.2 for GOE)
1Sal - .2 (-.1, +.2 for GOE)
1Toe - .2 (-.1, +.2 for GOE)

Re: On the Half Loop

Blades of Passion said:

Jump combinations like that still aren't given enough credit. Nobody is going to do a half-loop into a Triple Flip on the end of a jump rather than just attemping a Triple Toeloop with the way the rules is written right now. The half-loop taking up a combination slot is problematic. Why do a jump that only scores you .5 when you can do a Double Loop that scores 1.8?

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Because it allows you to do two combinations with two triples each without wasting one of your repeats on the triple toe.

Especially if the GOE is likely to be better.

Re: On the Half Loop

gkelly said:

Because it allows you to do two combinations with two triples each without wasting one of your repeats on the triple toe.

Especially if the GOE is likely to be better.

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GOE isn't likely to be better. Doing half-loop into Triple Flip off of another Triple jump is incredibly difficult and you're almost never going to have good speed coming out of the landing of the Triple Flip. Plushenko, one of the best jumpers ever (especially for doing difficult combination jumps), is the only person to ever attempt such a combination and his landings always came to a standstill.

Doing that kind of combination will still help your score a little with this recent rule change, but not nearly enough to make the risk worthwhile.

EDIT - What we really need to see is the 3Axel-3Toe (and 4Toe-3Toe) becoming standard for Men again. All these other more esoteric combination jumps certainly need to be properly credited as well, but those classic standards being lost in CoP scoring is even more problematic.

Re: On the Half Loop

Blades of Passion said:

What we really need to see is the 3Axel-3Toe (and 4Toe-3Toe) becoming standard for Men again. All these other more esoteric combination jumps certainly need to be properly credited as well, but those classic standards being lost in CoP scoring is even more problematic.

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I think this goes back to GKelly's point about not wanting to repeat a "+3T" combination. You can get just as many points by 3Lz+3T or 3F+3T and leave off the big quad or triple Axel combo.

a thing of the past?

Watch this video!

With current skaters, 3Loop as the second jump of the combo might be a thing of the past,
but who knows we might see a talent like this again someday even if it takes 50 years as Scott said.

No, her first jump was not triple, but I take this combo over Tara's 3Lp+3Lp anytime.
Amazing height, distance, speed and her second jumps look bigger than the first ones.
Because she could stay in th air longer than any other skaters,
she could afford to rotate slower in the air, absolutely no cheat here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orxxwvldw5A&feature=fvw

Re: On the Half Loop

Mathman said:

I think this goes back to GKelly's point about not wanting to repeat a "+3T" combination. You can get just as many points by 3Lz+3T or 3F+3T and leave off the big quad or triple Axel combo.

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I'm not sure what you're saying. It's indeed a problem that skaters can just do a +3T on an easier jump and get the same amount of points as if they had done it on a difficult 3Axel or Quad.

What GKelly was saying is that doing something like a 3Lutz-half loop-3Flip instead of a 3Lutz-3Toe allows you to do something like a 3Axle-3Toe in the program as well and still repeat both the 3Axel and 3Lutz in the program. My point, though, was that you don't actually get much more points for doing something like that with the way CoP is currently set. For example, look at these two jump layouts:

3Lutz-3Toe
3Axel
3Sal
----------
3Axel-2Toe
3Loop
3Flip-2Toe-2Loop
3Lutz
2Axel

That's what Evan Lysacek did the past two years to win his titles. Jeffrey Buttle did pretty much the same thing in 2008 to win Worlds and many other skaters have been following this mold as well. The base value for this jump layout as of the 2010-2011 season is 58.88.

Now, look at this layout:

3Axel-3Toe
3Lutz-half loop-3Flip
2Axel
----------
3Axel-2Toe
3Loop
3Sal
3Lutz
2Axel

This jump layout is MUCH more difficult. The base value it has is 59.05. That's barely higher. Less than half a point. Not even two-tenths of a point!

Re: On the Half Loop

Yes, I see what you mean. Even without the half loop + 3F option, Lysacek would have no reward for putting the 3T on his 3A instead of on the 3Lz.

So your plan would essentially be to work out base values for each combination as a whole, reflecting their difficulties.

Re: On the Half Loop

I know that a number of Russian ladies are still attempting/working on 3-3s with 3lo on the end. Adelina was doing 3lz-3lo as her combination almost all of last season, and Anna Ovcharova does 2a-3lo and is working on 3-3s (presumably with 3lo on the end as 3t is not her best jump). Then there is Mao and Miki who do 3f-3lo and 3lz-3lo...with the new rules about URs, I think will will see more ladies go for 3-3s, including 3-3lo

I agree with those who said that combos ending with 3L are underappreciated under CoP.

Firstly, they are more risky to execute. Combos ending with 3T are much easier to "save", even when the first jump is messed up. I've seen many skaters who were able to tack on 3T on the first jump even after having a wonky landing on the 1st one. It's much more difficult to do with a 3L - a messy landing , or even slightly missed timing will make the second jump nearly impossible to execute. The risk of underrotating is higher as well - even good jumpers, including men, often end up underrotating the combo (I speak judging mostly from practice clips, as there aren't many men who attempt 3L combos in competition). What's more, many combos that were ratified under 6.0 or early CoP would be downgraded under current rules.

Secondly, even if perfectly executed, a combo ending in 3L is likely to receive lower GoEs than one ending in 3T, because 3T combos always cover much more ice, and usually have better height and flow (and those are the 'easiest' way to gather the 'bullets' for a high GoE - I haven't seen any skater do a 3-3Lo combo out of a creative entry or with creative air position).

And finally, the post-halfway bonus in the LP makes it more point-worthy to do 3L in the second half (of course the most point-worthy would be to do a 3-3L or 3-3-3L combo in the second half, but few skaters has enough stamina to ever attempt that).


My solution would be: increase the base value of the second jump by 10%, and the third jump by 20%. This way combos ending in 3L would automatically be worth a bit more, because 3L has higher base value than 3T.
And 3-3-3 combos would be finally worth doing. With current rules, they are a bit pointless - even if a skater can do 3A-3T-3L, he/she's better off doing 3A-3T and solo 3L in the second half.

Some of my favourite combis ending in 3L:
3a-3t-3l: http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5479/3a3t3l.gif
3lz-3t-3l: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2465/3lz3t3l00.gif
3f-3l http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1186/3f3l.gif

For the ladies, the best 3loop award as a second jump goes to Midori Ito hands down IMO (BTW, the whole program here is spiffy!) Slow mo of the 2lp3lp combo is at about 2m35s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIzYlQhiBRo#t=2m35s

1988 Olympics SP

The height on the 3lp is amazing!

dorispulaski said:

For the ladies, the best 3loop award as a second jump goes to Midori Ito hands down IMO (BTW, the whole program here is spiffy!) Slow mo of the 2lp3lp combo is at about 2m35s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIzYlQhiBRo#t=2m35s

1988 Olympics SP

The height on the 3lp is amazing!

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Amazing! Even with that bent, almost wrapped free leg!

hikki said:

Thanks for the link. I remember watching this. It was 2lutz/3toe, which was very nice.

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no, it's a 2toe/3toe.

stemming from the other 3/3 discussion, I think that more ladies will try the triple loops as the second half of combonations if this new rule about downgrades shows staying power. I am thinking Mao especially.