Rachael defers Stanford, skates for another year? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Rachael defers Stanford, skates for another year?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
There are other judged sports where artistry is a factor: Diving, Gymnastics, Children's Pagaents.

:laugh:

I have been thinking some more about the music factor, and this is what I came up with. What every successful spectator sport needs is an emotional hook to draw in the attention of the audience. Baseball is a very exciting sport to watch because a baseball game is packed solid with little emotional peaks and valleys, with crescendos and diminuendos, and occasionally a cymbal-crashing climax.

The base-runner leans off first base. Is the hit-and-run on? Here comes the pitch. The catcher has called for a pitch-out! The runner is dead meat! Horray for the home team!

Without that emotional commitment, it is just some overgrown boys hitting a ball with a stick.

In figure skating, never mind "artistry," I think the role of the music is to provide the setting for that kind of emotional commitment on the part of the audience.

Hongbo Zhao flings Xue Shen halfway across the rink -- OK.

Hongbo Zhao flings Xue Shen halfway across the rink to the achingly beautiful strains of Nessun Dorma -- not a dry eye in the house!
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
About the controversy over Rachael's scores at U.S. Nationals and then at the Olympics, I think the only thing for certain is that it brings the judging system into the crossfires again.

My personal opinion (many agree, including the NBC television commentators) is that Mirai should have won U.S. Nationals. But she didn't, despite a rousing performance, because of two under-rotation calls.

At the Olympics, I think Rachael should have placed fifth. But she didn't, despite a rousing performance, because of two under-rotation calls.

In both cases the jumps in question seemed no worse than many others in the competition that were ratified. This leaves the impression -- at least for me it did -- that the new judging system is just as whimsical as the old. It leaves the impression that it is the technical panel and the judges that are deciding the contest, not the athletes on the ice.

I don't know if there is any cure for this problem. Figure skating is a judged sport. The athletes just have to grin and bear it. :cry:

There's a difference. Mirai's underrotated jumps were visible during real time. At slow mo, they became even more apparent.
Rachael's flips underrotation weren't visible. Even Sandra Bezic said if she can execute a triple flip triple toe cleanly, how could the flip be underrotated and didn't agree with the call.
I think the fairest way is to attach some kind of device to track revolution and mark it accordingly. The technical specialists can join the Michigan auto workers at the breadline.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Precisely. IMHO, they gave Nagasu's 2nd US title to Rachel Flatt.

And possibly, Flatt's title to Czisny in 2009...

On the third hand, they might have given Rachael's first U.S. championship -- 2008 -- to Mirai. (Rachael won the LP. Mirai was third. But Mirai got some big (inflated?) scores in the SP and was able to hold on, much as Alissa did in 1009.)

I may not even watch any more comps until something is done about this ridiculous downgrade rule.

You're in luck! They just changed the rule! :yes:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...s-raised-new-1-4-1-2-rule-for-under-rotations
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003

*golf clap*

now THAT is fair. "Downgrade" only if it's underrotated more than 1/2 turn. We're actually getting somewhere now. Someone over at ISU FINALLY "gets it".

ETA: Of course, the judges still have the power between choosing between a "full jump" and "1/4 under" jump. At least there won't be as big a penalty but still...well, let's see.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Precisely. IMHO, they gave Nagasu's 2nd US title to Rachel Flatt.

And possibly, Flatt's title to Czisny in 2009...

You pointed out more succinctly than I could why I'm so frustrated with the scoring right now. I may not even watch any more comps until something is done about this ridiculous downgrade rule. Hell, with no skating on TV anyway this'll be easy.

Yeah agreed. Although I don't think Rachael should have been 5th in Vancouver, Miki had a clean LP too and clean Miki trumps clean Rachael any day - Miki has better speed, better jumps, better spins, better stretch. I think Rachael should have been 6th though ahead of Lepisto because Laura had the 3t-2t as her combo in the SP and doubled a jump in the long, while Rachael landed and seemingly rotated all her triples.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I dunno. I think Nagasu earned her 2008 title fair and square. The past two years, though, the judging has been suspect...I feel that since there hasn't been a clear leader, there's a bit of influence going on BTS. Oh well, whatever.
 

princess9

On the Ice
Joined
May 1, 2010
ITA. I am not the biggest Racheal fan, but skated like a champion in Vancouver when it counted but was not scored as such. I didn't see anything wrong with her jumps then nor do I now. Yes, sometimes her jumps look borderline to me and she does not get called out on it, but they looked very clean in Vancouver. I don't know what Racheal did to tick the tech caller off, but I think it really played with her confidence at worlds where she did not skate up to par.

Exactly my intuition about Worlds, Tiny! You could see the confusion/disappointment in her face as she rec'd her scores at Olys. Miki's LP was laborious and slow and no fun to watch. I think Miki should quit competing. Her gala skates are so much better. She looks happy when not competing! This woman is a world champion and has been on the scene a long time. The judges do give points for that.

And they clearly like Laura Lepisto a lot. She certainly LOOKS great and is a pleasant skater but technically? I think we will see great effort from Flatt and while she is never going to look like Sasha, she will improve her line and her posture. I really enjoyed her spunky SP and though there are more talented skaters around, she does deliver a clean and joyous program. It is so great to see beautiful Alissa do her spins/spirals but its not worth watching the nerves/splatfests for moments of beauty. Kwan was great because she was so "solid." Imagine what Rachael might have accomplished if she were a full time skater like most of them?

In a sport where many great champions peak at 16, 17 we have to remember some people are great at an older age. Kristi at 28 was still competitive with most eligibles or could have been had she chosen. Olympic gold was her beginning. She was not a great artistic skater then but she became IMO the most exquisite woman. Rachael won't be in for a long time because she has other plans for her life, so we are not likely going to see all she can do. She knows Mirai will be the focus anyway. Look at the women she is skating against. The heavily favored Kim, the awesome Asada. The sophisticated heroine Rochette. Did she do a bad job for us? I'm so sick of the nasty comments about the hair bump and her neck. She's still a great skater. Yes, she was tinier 3 years ago and maybe she could get in better shape with off ice work. But she IS a student/athlete. Emphasis on the STUDENT. Flatt! Not your ordinary bunhead!
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ But in compensation, I can remember when Eisenhower was President and Ozzie and Harriet was the big TV show (not that anyone had a TV). :)
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I dunno. I think Nagasu earned her 2008 title fair and square. The past two years, though, the judging has been suspect...I feel that since there hasn't been a clear leader, there's a bit of influence going on BTS. Oh well, whatever.

It seems that some fans won't give Mirai any credit at all. When she wins they say she should have lost.
When she beats their favorite they say she is lucky because she is able to charm the judges and fans with her skating. Isn't that just being a better performer and one of the goals of a good skating performance? :)

The comparison that can't be ignored is that Mirai scored 188 in front of her Natl judges and the same in Vancouver. She received no Natls boost at all and appeared to be judged more harshly than Sasha, Ashley and Rachael. :scowl:

The skater who was obviously given a huge boost at Natls was Flatt. Her scores from Natls were much higher than her international scores. Her fans don't like to admit this and US Skating judges should feel somewhat embarrassed.

The international judges did send US Skating a strong and clear message. Poor posture with weak or average positions, slow awkward looking spins, and skating with the speed of a junior skater will NOT be given huge scores against the world's best skaters. They seemed to notice her mule kick as well and to the everlasting chagrin of her fans did not think her flips were acceptable.

If Rachael was disheartend by her Olympic scores she should talk to someone honest from US Skating. They should be straight with her and explain to her she is NOT a 200 point skater under fair and unbiased judging. When she is clean she is about a 180 point skater.

She needs to understand this and work on things if she wants scores like Mao. Yea, 200 points for Mao feels OK, but Rachael? Is Rachael as good as Mao and does her skating compare favorably to Mao's?

When we look at scores from Vancouver and then compare Rachael's skating with Mao - the scores in Vancouver make perfect sense. Rachael must improve aspects of her skating before she will get 200 points at major international events.

Seven nice triples will possibly win an "ice jumping" contest. But better overall quality on the other elements of skating is required under the current IJS.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Exactly my intuition about Worlds, Tiny! You could see the confusion/disappointment in her face as she rec'd her scores at Olys. Miki's LP was laborious and slow and no fun to watch. I think Miki should quit competing. Her gala skates are so much better. She looks happy when not competing! This woman is a world champion and has been on the scene a long time. The judges do give points for that.

And they clearly like Laura Lepisto a lot. She certainly LOOKS great and is a pleasant skater but technically? I think we will see great effort from Flatt and while she is never going to look like Sasha, she will improve her line and her posture. I really enjoyed her spunky SP and though there are more talented skaters around, she does deliver a clean and joyous program. It is so great to see beautiful Alissa do her spins/spirals but its not worth watching the nerves/splatfests for moments of beauty. Kwan was great because she was so "solid." Imagine what Rachael might have accomplished if she were a full time skater like most of them?

You're forgetting that Laura DID have the jumps in Vancouver though - she did 3t-3t, 3lz, and two 3lo in her LP which is competitive among the top ladies. Also are you trying to say that Flatt is a better SKATER than Lepisto? I mean I get that she usually lands her jumps but IMO Laura deserves her high PCS. I actually found it really funny that Flatt and Leonova got higher PCS than Mirai in the SP in Vancouver - I mean honestly? The scores were much more fair at Worlds where Leonova got 48 for her LP PCS, Rachael got 53, and Mirai got 57. Rachael's components just aren't up to snuff with ladies like Miki and Laura and that is why she lost to them. Normally she does well because her high TES makes up for her slightly lower PCS, but I actually think those PCS are deserved, I mean Ashley doesn't get higher PCS than mid 50s for her LPs internationally so why should Rachael? I mean don't get me wrong, Rachael is a great skater, but she is a technician, her strength is in her jumps, not her skating.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
:laugh:

I have been thinking some more about the music factor, and this is what I came up with. What every successful spectator sport needs is an emotional hook to draw in the attention of the audience. Baseball is a very exciting sport to watch because a baseball game is packed solid with little emotional peaks and valleys, with crescendos and diminuendos, and occasionally a cymbal-crashing climax.

The base-runner leans off first base. Is the hit-and-run on? Here comes the pitch. The catcher has called for a pitch-out! The runner is dead meat! Horray for the home team!

Without that emotional commitment, it is just some overgrown boys hitting a ball with a stick.

In figure skating, never mind "artistry," I think the role of the music is to provide the setting for that kind of emotional commitment on the part of the audience.

Hongbo Zhao flings Xue Shen halfway across the rink -- OK.

Hongbo Zhao flings Xue Shen halfway across the rink to the achingly beautiful strains of Nessun Dorma -- not a dry eye in the house!

I think you have something there, Math. I know I wouldn't be as enthusiastic a skating fan if not for the music--after all, I don't feel this way about gymnastics, and they even have a floor exercise to music (but I can't imagine even Nastia doing a floor exercise to, say, Rachmaninoff).

I don't know how to do double quotes, but Princess, I absolutely agree with you that many skaters peak way past the typical "winning" age, and Kristi is a supreme example. Certainly Kurt is as well. It isn't just that his technique got more exciting, but he also made a greater contribution to skating. His innovative use of footwork and the way he exploits music have definitely raised the bar for eligible skaters, in part because he has inspired choreographers who work with those skaters. Even Michelle and Irina show the truth of your remark. If they had stopped skating after their first Olympics, they would merely have been a pair of promising skaters with good jumps and (in Michelle's case) delightful artistry--what were their names again? With a longer career and added artistic maturity, every year they added to the luster of their names.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't know how to do double quotes,...

At the bottom right of each post, where it says reply to post, etc., one of the options is "multiquote," indicated by a quotation mark and a plus. (For some older browsers, like mine, this is hidden under the next line and hard to access. :eek:hwell:)

Just click this for every post the you want to quote, and when the reply to post dialogue box appears it will have all the posts there. You can then insert comments between posts.

Alternatively, you can do it by hand. Type [*quote] (remove *), then copy and paste what you want to quote, then put [/quote] at the end. :)
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
She probably can't AP out of the first year chem class unless she got a 5 on the AP exam, even so, if she wants to go to med school eventually, she would need to take the 31 series. Lectures, mandatory sessions with TA, plus lab, plus everyone's gunning for the top spots, she just can't afford to skate and go to school full time. .

If that's a potential goal, yeah, she may want to have straight A's.

Let's face it, most of her HS classmates aren't smart. :).

You mean her high school was not that good?

I know a lot of students took the easier route and went to Santa Clara University to fulfill the chem requirements. Even full time stanford students took the easier way out.

I don't quite get the context. Could you please explain a little more? Does Stanford allow you to go to another college to get certain credits, like taking summer courses?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The skater who was obviously given a huge boost at Natls was Flatt. Her scores from Natls were much higher than her international scores. Her fans don't like to admit this and US Skating judges should feel somewhat embarrassed.

The international judges did send US Skating a strong and clear message. Poor posture with weak or average positions, slow awkward looking spins, and skating with the speed of a junior skater will NOT be given huge scores against the world's best skaters. They seemed to notice her mule kick as well and to the everlasting chagrin of her fans did not think her flips were acceptable.

Let's see if the numbers give support to these opinions.

At U.S. Nationals, the judges gave Rachael PCSs of 61.71. At the Oympic she got 59.48.

At U.S. Nationals she got a total of 6.64 in GOEs. At the Olympics she got 6.40.

A I am not seeing a loud and clear message, to the embarrassment of U.S. judges, in these numbers.

So what was the difference in her total scores? Rachael lost a total of 6.72 for the two downgrades.

Now let's look at Mirai's scores at U.S. Nationals compared to Rachaels. Mirai beat Racahel in GOEs, 8.28 to 6.64, and (just barely) in PCS (61.78 to 61.71).

So why did Mirai lose both to Rachael and to Ashley in the LP? Mirai had three downgrades which cost her a whopping 10.26 points. (By the way, the judges disagreed with the tech panel at least on Mirai's 2A+3T. Five of the nine judges gave her positive GOEs, with two judges giving her a +2).

So in both of these events the result was wholly determined by downgrades which were discernible only to the tech specialist in slo-motion. I do not see any support for claims that the U.S. judges picked on Mirai and boosted Rachael, or that the international judges are in the business of sending sinister messages to anyone. Mirai got some unlucky calls at Nationals and Rachael got some unlucky calls at the Olympics, that's all.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Let's see if the numbers give support to these opinions.

At U.S. Nationals, the judges gave Rachael PCSs of 61.71. At the Oympic she got 59.48.

At U.S. Nationals she got a total of 6.64 in GOEs. At the Olympics she got 6.40.

A I am not seeing a loud and clear message, to the embarrassment of U.S. judges, in these numbers.

So what was the difference in her total scores? Rachael lost a total of 6.72 for the two downgrades.

Now let's look at Mirai's scores at U.S. Nationals compared to Rachaels. Mirai beat Racahel in GOEs, 8.28 to 6.64, and (just barely) in PCS (61.78 to 61.71).

So why did Mirai lose both to Rachael and to Ashley in the LP? Mirai had three downgrades which cost her a whopping 10.26 points. (By the way, the judges disagreed with the tech panel at least on Mirai's 2A+3T. Five of the nine judges gave her positive GOEs, with two judges giving her a +2).

So in both of these events the result was wholly determined by downgrades which were discernible only to the tech specialist in slo-motion. I do not see any support for claims that the U.S. judges picked on Mirai and boosted Rachael, or that the international judges are in the business of sending sinister messages to anyone. Mirai got some unlucky calls at Nationals and Rachael got some unlucky calls at the Olympics, that's all.

OK, I appreciate your analysis and thoughts on this.
But since you are the "mathman" others might look at a simpler or more direct comparison.

What was the point difference between Rachael's score at US Nats and at the Olympic?

Was it only a few points as you seem to be implying? Then your analysis and opinion would be spot on.
I don't think the point difference was so small and I don't believe you make a convincing case.

Mirai's score was almost identical at Natls and the Olympics.
Rachael's was not. There was a substancial difference.
 
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R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It seems that some fans won't give Mirai any credit at all. When she wins they say she should have lost.
When she beats their favorite they say she is lucky because she is able to charm the judges and fans with her skating. Isn't that just being a better performer and one of the goals of a good skating performance? :)

The comparison that can't be ignored is that Mirai scored 188 in front of her Natl judges and the same in Vancouver. She received no Natls boost at all and appeared to be judged more harshly than Sasha, Ashley and Rachael. :scowl:

The skater who was obviously given a huge boost at Natls was Flatt. Her scores from Natls were much higher than her international scores. Her fans don't like to admit this and US Skating judges should feel somewhat embarrassed.

The international judges did send US Skating a strong and clear message. Poor posture with weak or average positions, slow awkward looking spins, and skating with the speed of a junior skater will NOT be given huge scores against the world's best skaters. They seemed to notice her mule kick as well and to the everlasting chagrin of her fans did not think her flips were acceptable.

If Rachael was disheartend by her Olympic scores she should talk to someone honest from US Skating. They should be straight with her and explain to her she is NOT a 200 point skater under fair and unbiased judging. When she is clean she is about a 180 point skater.

She needs to understand this and work on things if she wants scores like Mao. Yea, 200 points for Mao feels OK, but Rachael? Is Rachael as good as Mao and does her skating compare favorably to Mao's?

The scores, IMO, were scaled accordingly so everyone was given that "Nationals" boost. Heck, the US is actually fairly reasonable about this compared to some other countries...

And this Olympics was strange as well. I actually expected the scores to be LOWER than usual but everyone got a scoring boost as if it were Grand Nationals or something. So Nagasu got a scoring boost in BOTH events. Rachel just got less of one at Olys (or more of one at Nats, however you wish to view it).

While I agree that Rachel benefitted from generous scoring at Nationals, I also think she got hosed at Olys. I won't go into detail as MM has basically gotten the point across already. So it worked both ways. I mean, other skaters got the benefit of the doubt (including Flatt herself in the SP!) so I didn't get that questionable DG in the FS. Glad to see they are making the DG less harsh but it still remains, and can still be used to hose down skaters at will. (I still think a jump that ends with a fall should be given 0 points, but I guess that's for another thread)

Rachel's been taking a LOT of heat lately, even being bashed from time to time. I don't think there is a need to dog on Flatt to build Nagasu up, however. Nor is it necessary to compare Flatt to Asada, both skaters are in different leagues. Can't expect a Honda Civic to outshine a Lexus convertible...

(Hondas are fine cars, very reliable - just like Rachel - but just don't stand out from the crowd.)
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
The scores, IMO, were scaled accordingly so everyone was given that "Nationals" boost. Heck, the US is actually fairly reasonable about this compared to some other countries...

And this Olympics was strange as well. I actually expected the scores to be LOWER than usual but everyone got a scoring boost as if it were Grand Nationals or something. So Nagasu got a scoring boost in BOTH events. Rachel just got less of one at Olys (or more of one at Nats, however you wish to view it).

While I agree that Rachel benefitted from generous scoring at Nationals, I also think she got hosed at Olys. I won't go into detail as MM has basically gotten the point across already. So it worked both ways. I mean, other skaters got the benefit of the doubt (including Flatt herself in the SP!) so I didn't get that questionable DG in the FS. Glad to see they are making the DG less harsh but it still remains, and can still be used to hose down skaters at will. (I still think a jump that ends with a fall should be given 0 points, but I guess that's for another thread)

Rachel's been taking a LOT of heat lately, even being bashed from time to time. I don't think there is a need to dog on Flatt to build Nagasu up, however. Nor is it necessary to compare Flatt to Asada, both skaters are in different leagues. Can't expect a Honda Civic to outshine a Lexus convertible...

(Hondas are fine cars, very reliable - just like Rachel - but just don't stand out from the crowd.)
My post was an answer to the post that implied Mirai did not deserve to win '08 Natls and that Flatt did.
So it is OK to "hose" Mirai but not examine scores a little closer?
Mathman makes an interesting point while artfully avoiding answering the true comparison which was in their final scores. Rachael received over 200 points at US Natls, a score we are more used to seeing Mao approach.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
You mean her high school was not that good?

I don't quite get the context. Could you please explain a little more? Does Stanford allow you to go to another college to get certain credits, like taking summer courses?

I don't know anything about Rachael's specific high school, but it's often the case that in a large high school, or even a small local ones, there are a few kids who are both smarter and more highly motivated than the rest of the student body, and then when they get into college, especially a premium one such as Stanford, they're suddenly faced with a whole population of equivalent smarties, and excelling is a good deal more of a challenge than it was for them in high school. I suspect that scenario is true for Rachael.

As for the "cross-college" thing, I have a friend who took one course in another local college because it wasn't offered in her own college, but both were part of the same public system, so that may be a different case.
 
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