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Thread: Base values of quads and triple Axels raised, new 1/4-1/2 rule for under-rotations

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Base values of quads and triple Axels raised, new 1/4-1/2 rule for under-rotations

    Thanks to gkelly for posting this on the "New Rules" thread.

    Here are the new base values and GOE guidelines for the 2010-2011 season (ISU Cimmunication 1611).

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...v-list,00.html

    The value of quad toe was raised to 10.3 (from 9.8), tripe Axel to 8.5 (from 8.2). Base value of double Axel lowered to 3.3 (from 3.5).

    Jump under-rotated by 1/4 to 1/2 revolution gets 70% of base value. Jump under-rotated by more than 1/2 gets downgraded to next lower jump.

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    I think we'll be seeing a lot more 3-3 attempts from the ladies because of this rule, which is especially favorable to Mao and Mirai. I expect Miki will bring 3lz-3lo back now that it will be worth more than 3lz-2lo even if it is downgraded.

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    -Overall less emphasis on jumps
    -Greater emphasis on difficult jumps and attempts
    -Less penalty on fall/errors

    I don't understand why they reduced the base value of triple flip...?

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    This makes sense. I always thought an underrotated triple should be worth more than a clean double.
    Last edited by PolymerBob; 05-06-2010 at 07:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Thanks to gkelly for posting this on the "New Rules" thread.

    Here are the new base values and GOE guidelines for the 2010-2011 season (ISU Cimmunication 1611).

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...v-list,00.html

    The value of quad toe was raised to 10.3 (from 9.8), tripe Axel to 8.5 (from 8.2). Base value of double Axel lowered to 3.3 (from 3.5).

    Jump under-rotated by 1/4 to 1/2 revolution gets 70% of base value. Jump under-rotated by more than 1/2 gets downgraded to next lower jump.
    I see more ladeez attempting the 3a, and more men attempting the quad. So what is the base value of 4s or 4 flip?

    Anyway why only 0.7 and not 0.75 when they complete a 3.38 rotations for a 3a? j/k
    Last edited by rtureck; 05-06-2010 at 04:11 PM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I'm immediately hit with the term Downgraded, and there is no penalty for Disrupting the Program if a skater makes the air rotations and falls. Bleh. If a skater takes off on a wrong edge, then the skater is doing another jump - intended or not.

    Raising or lowering the values of the jumps is just a scoring gimmick. Joubert will be happy for this.

    I agree that they did something with the URs which more often than not do not disrupt the program. A UR of more than 1/2 will be easier to see, and it does not comply with the definition of a jump, and most fans will agree with the Specialist. Hopefully, when the next lower jump is not scored as an over rotation.

    Thanks MM. I'll download these over the weekend for ready references.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here are the new base values for triple jumps:

    3T = 4.1 (under-rotated 2.9)
    3S = 4.2 (under-rotated 2.9)
    3Lo = 5.1 (under-rotated 3.6)
    3F = 5.3 (under-rotated 3.7)
    3Lz = 6.0 (under-rotated 4.2)
    3A = 8.5 (under-rotated 6.0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    and there is no penalty for Disrupting the Program if a skater makes the air rotations and falls.
    Yes there is. It's called the fall deduction, which has already been in place since about 2005.

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    Important detail - GOE and <

    I must point out, the proposed new rule calls for the UR jump's (negative) GOE to be scored based on the intended jump. For example, Mao Asada executed a Triple Axel that is worth 8.5 base point but is called as < by the Technical Panel. The < sign will be shown to the judges and she will receive a reduced base value of 6.0 However, instead of having negative GOE penalty based on the Double Axel, the GOE will be assessed based on the Triple Axel. Because the < sign will again be indicated to the judges, this means most if not all of them will opt to give her negative GOE between -1 to -2 whereas this past season, some may have given her 0 or +1 in GOE. Assuming that on average, that means a negative GOE of about 1.5 for a jump with no visible error, that means 6.0 - 1.5 = 4.5 in value, only slightly better than a Double Axel with positive GOE.

    The fact that:

    1) < sign will be indicated to the judges
    2) GOE (negative) will be based on the intended jump

    Both of these changes will dampen the mid-point value rule, and make the overall effect, only slightly better than a downgraded jump because the latter's negative GOE is based on the downgraded jump, thus mitigating the downside effect.

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    Good point. It's still an improvement over downgrading the base value to the lesser jump and also getting negative GOE.

    And it's more of an improvement for triple-triple combinations. Because with those, even though the base value of the downgraded triple was that of a double, the negative GOE was that of the remaining triple jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Good point. It's still an improvement over downgrading the base value to the lesser jump and also getting negative GOE.
    Overall, I agree with this new proposal, separating UR from Downgrade. The UR will likely produce an overall impact that is slightly better than Downgrade, all things considered, including GOE. But the penalty will be severe enough that we won't be seeing a big surge in bogus claims of Triple Axel (ladies) and difficult Quads (e.g. 4F, 4Lz in men). This change I think was well reasoned and reflected the feedback of the skating community in general, taking into account a wide range of view points.

    And it's more of an improvement for triple-triple combinations. Because with those, even though the base value of the downgraded triple was that of a double, the negative GOE was that of the remaining triple jump.
    I am not sure I understand you correctly here. I see no noticeable impact on 3-3 combos. For example, Miki Ando's 3Lz+3Lo combo where the 3Lo is <. In the previous seasons, the overall GOE of the element will still be based on the most difficult jump in the combination, which is the 3Lz unless both jumps are downgraded, which was generally rare among elite skaters. So the new rule will only have an impact of a said skater if he/she used to have both Triples in the combo downgraded but not if only one of them was downgraded.

    Will this encourage skaters to do more Triple-Triple? I am not sure. Let's use some examples. Joannie Rochette is undecided between a 3Lz+3T or a 3Lz+2T for her SP combo for the 2010-2011 season. Her coach Manon Perron made the following calculations:

    1) 3Lz+3T: (6+4) X 1.1 = Base Value of 11 plus + 0.7 GOE = 11.7

    2) 3Lz+3T< : (6+2.9) X 1.1 = Base Value of 9.79 minus - 1.05 GOE = 8.74

    3) 3Lz+2T: (6+1.4) X 1.1 = Base Value of 8.14 plus 1.05 GOE = 9.19


    In scenario 1, the coach assumes that the higher difficulty of the jump combo means it's harder to execute it well, and conservatively estimate the positive GOE to average just around one + sign = +0.7 point. In scenario 2, Ms. Perron estimates that the < sign shown to the judges will prompt some of them to go -2 and some -1 for an overall GOE around one & half - sign = -1.05 point. Likewise, in scenario 3, the easier combo should allow her skater to gain a positive GOE of about 1.05 point, between + and ++ on average.

    As you can see, the upside of doing the 3T combo is worth about 2.5 points vs. the 2T option whereas the 3T< vs. 2T is more or less a wash. The downside of the new rule is that if an under-rotation was not visually visible to the judges, the skater may not get negative GOE in the past like Yu-Na Kim's 3Lz+3T combo at the 2009 GPF where she earned +2 for that element even though the 3T was downgraded. That was also the reasoning that Morozov used to justify having Miki Ando doing a 3Lz+3Lo in her SP in Vancouver hoping that judges will miss the UR visually. Therefore, the new rule ensured that UR greater than 1/4 will be advised to the judges and come with it, a higher probability of receiving negative GOE, which acts as a deterrent against more skaters trying Triple-Triple combos.

    So the verdict on the potential effect on the number of attempts of 3/3 remains to be seen.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 05-06-2010 at 05:18 PM.

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    Not only that, they also lowered the scale of GOE values for triple jumps, except Triple Axel. Now, +2 means 1.4 in actual points. wow, they even lowered that of double axel to only 1.0.

    So now, if you excute a perfect triple axel, you will score 11.5, whereas a perfect double axel will only get you 4.8.

    It seems, now they regard double axel as in between double and triple jumps category, but a triple axel is regarded as same as the quads.

    Are these really final changes though?
    Last edited by Basics; 05-06-2010 at 05:30 PM.

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    I don't understand why they would lower the scale of GOE for triple jumps? Why lower BV for 3F? Some of the things they do.. I will never understand.

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    They also took out i mark for jumps. That means the tech penal will be more lenient on edges?

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    The Future Mrs. Evan Lysacek #1Kerryfan's Avatar
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    I think all the men are going to do quads and all the ladies are going to do triple-triples now. We might even see more ladies attempting triple axels. To be honest, I'm kind of sorry they did this. It eggs on the Stojkos and Plushenkos of the world who think hard jumps are all that skating is all about.......

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