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Thread: Base values of quads and triple Axels raised, new 1/4-1/2 rule for under-rotations

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    Some double jumps like 2l has inc BV too right? So if male skater can't land 3a/3t, can he choose 3a/2t/2l/2l (BTW how many double jumps can he put in a combo)

    Remmeber Plushy used to do 4t/3/3, can they add another 2l and make it a 4t/3/3/2 ?

    I know this thread is just about jumps, but there are some changes to spins also?
    I don't think you can have more than three jumps in a combo.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 05-07-2010 at 10:36 AM.

  2. #62
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    Why did they raise the base value for 2Lo by staggering 0.3? They just realized 3Lo is that much more difficult? Why decreasing that of 3F by 0.2... now the difference b/w 3F and 3Lo is only 0.2.
    Last edited by parma; 05-07-2010 at 11:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehdtkqorl123 View Post
    If you are a soccer player, hit the goal post and get 0.5 score. If you hit the post twice, it's the same as scoring a goal!! yay~~
    Hit five times, you may win the whole game!

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    Quote Originally Posted by parma View Post
    Why did they raise the base value for 2Lo by staggering 0.3? They just realized 3Lo is that much more difficult? Why decreasing that of 3F by 0.2... not the difference b/w 3F and 3Lo is only 0.2.
    yeah, I can understand the BV of 3Lo being raised a little, but why the heck they lower that of 3F? and now the difference between 3T and 3S is just 0.1???

    Does anyone know if these BV changes are actually based on some kind of statistics of success rate?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    yeah, I can understand the BV of 3Lo being raised a little, but why the heck they lower that of 3F? and now the difference between 3T and 3S is just 0.1???

    Does anyone know if these BV changes are actually based on some kind of statistics of success rate?
    Maybe because the queen of figure skating doesn't do 3lo along with a lot of other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post

    My point was it was a simple -1 for losing the entire landing of a jump and disrupting the flow of the program. The penalty of -1 compared to the penalties listed by MM of the UR are a huge difference and the UR does not disrupt the program in most cases.

    Do you actually agree that losing the entire landing of a jump is less serious than an underrotation?
    The nature of the errors are different, it's difficult to compare falling vs. UR directly. You could fall on a fully rotated jump, which means you have mastered the jump (e.g. Quad Flip) whereas the UR could mean the skater is not even close to mastering the required rotations to call the said jump a Quad or Triple. The latter could be a very serious consideration given that a Quad Toe is worth 10.3 whereas a Triple is only 4.1 If UR is not severely penalized, there would be a surge of bogus claims re: skaters who claim to be able to land Quads for example. Using an example, if a skater severely UR a Quad Toe attempt, it wouldn't be fair to give him 10.3 of BV - 3 for GOE - 1 for falling because that would equal 6.3, a value greater than the Triple Lutz even though the Quad is more like over rotated Triple Toe. If so, a program could be filled of bogus Quad attempts with 6 or 7 falls and still end up having a total TES equal to 6 or 7 Triple Lutzes combined. Clearly, I don't believe you think that makes any sense.

    Sometimes a fall isn't as bad it seems. The encouragement should be focused on getting the skaters to learn the proper technique and fully rotate their jumps as opposed to encouraging gaming behavior. So to answer your question, yes, I think UR can be a much more serious problem than a fall.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I don't think you can have more than three jumps in a combo.
    You can have one combo consisting of 3 (listed) jumps and the other 2 (max) combos may only contain 2 (listed) jumps. With the 1/2 Lo now getting a value, a 3T+1(h)Lo+3S is considered your 3 jump combo pass.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    The nature of the errors are different, it's difficult to compare falling vs. UR directly. You could fall on a fully rotated jump, which means you have mastered the jump (e.g. Quad Flip) whereas the UR could mean the skater is not even close to mastering the required rotations to call the said jump a Quad or Triple. The latter could be a very serious consideration given that a Quad Toe is worth 10.3 whereas a Triple is only 4.1 If UR is not severely penalized, there would be a surge of bogus claims re: skaters who claim to be able to land Quads for example. Using an example, if a skater severely UR a Quad Toe attempt, it wouldn't be fair to give him 10.3 of BV - 3 for GOE - 1 for falling because that would equal 6.3, a value greater than the Triple Lutz even though the Quad is more like over rotated Triple Toe. If so, a program could be filled of bogus Quad attempts with 6 or 7 falls and still end up having a total TES equal to 6 or 7 Triple Lutzes combined. Clearly, I don't believe you think that makes any sense.


    Sometimes a fall isn't as bad it seems. The encouragement should be focused on getting the skaters to learn the proper technique and fully rotate their jumps as opposed to encouraging gaming behavior. So to answer your question, yes, I think UR can be a much more serious problem than a fall.
    Wally Lutz - Too much gobble de gook to explain a simple question. That's a lot of company support you are given to Falls. With sometimes can be. The issues of the URs and the Falls are quite clear.
    Losing the last third of a 3part element is serious. A Fall on a jump is much more serious than landing a jump with an error. Clearly, I think you know that.

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    wait, so now GOE for 3-3 is rewarded the same way as other triples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Wally Lutz - Too much gobble de gook to explain a simple question. That's a lot of company support you are given to Falls. With sometimes can be. The issues of the URs and the Falls are quite clear.
    Losing the last third of a 3part element is serious. A Fall on a jump is much more serious than landing a jump with an error. Clearly, I think you know that.
    Not all errors are equal and you know that. Some are more serious than others. Fall is only one of many type of errors and it's not even an automatic -3 GOE, FYI, a common misconception, nonetheless, worth pointing out.

    Just as you'd like to generalize that UR isn't as serious as a mistake compared to a fall - the answer is clear - it depends. Some falls, like Javier Fernandez's fall on his 4T in Vancouver was unfortunate but most people would agree it was a good attempt with full rotations. Sorry to say using your misguided logic, we may even be seeing Quad Axel attempts because falling on a 4A clearly wouldn't seem so bad given its 15 BV value -- more like 16.5 points if you do it during the 2nd half of the LP -- if UR or Downgrade doesn't serve as a deterrent to such attempt to game the system because the fall would only provide -3.6 in negative GOE + another -1 for mandatory fall, clearly a very small price to pay for such a big carrot.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 05-07-2010 at 08:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    wait, so now GOE for 3-3 is rewarded the same way as other triples?


    Yes and No. No, because the methodology hasn't changed compared to years past, 3-3 GOE is based on the most difficult jump in the combo. Yes, because the GOE for jumps have been mostly revised downward so it has more variation than before.

  12. #72
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Well, the ISU at least listened. Their execution fails yet again, though.

    Why did they decrease the -GOE for jumps????

    If you fall on a Quad Toe, it's now worth 6.3 points.

    Making the underrotation penalty less severe is good, but the way they implemented it is not perfect either.

    Really, ISU, I've written entire detailed essays on exactly how you need to fix your system. It took you 4 years just to implement a lazy change to the way underrotated jumps are scored. You're not the United States Government. It shouldn't take so long to fix the judging system.

  13. #73
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    The system now is more complicated than ever; befor I can use score the skater in my head; and be right on the money; now with all these half values; and 1/4 vs 1/2 urs and ; flaky e's and lost elements;

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by enlight78 View Post
    The system now is more complicated than ever; befor I can use score the skater in my head; and be right on the money; now with all these half values; and 1/4 vs 1/2 urs and ; flaky e's and lost elements;
    I guess you will get used to it with time. We just need to see how different skates are scored and build a frame of references.
    But you're right. You have very little hope of correctly scoring the skaters in your head unless you're Asian or Mathman

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    How about jumps that are fully rotated and landed on 2ft? So how will the new rules score Dice's 4f at Torinio worlds


    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Maybe because the queen of figure skating doesn't do 3lo along with a lot of other people.
    I seriously doubt the BV change in the 3 lo is based on just one skater, whoever the so called "queen" maybe. If that is the case, the rules committee should increase marks for full extension with great amplitude on spirals.
    Last edited by rtureck; 05-08-2010 at 12:29 AM.

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