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Thread: Base values of quads and triple Axels raised, new 1/4-1/2 rule for under-rotations

  1. #16
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    So aren't these rule changes basically same as the ones JSF proposed some time after the Olympics?

  2. #17
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrlmy View Post
    -Overall less emphasis on jumps
    -Greater emphasis on difficult jumps and attempts
    -Less penalty on fall/errors

    I don't understand why they reduced the base value of triple flip...?
    Not really sure, but they also slightly decreased the base value of the 3S and increased the 3Lo.

    Overall, these changes look pretty good to me.

    I'm still a little confused about the whole Base< and GoE deal. For example, an underrotated 3A has a base value of 6.0, but since it's underrotated there's also a possible -1 to -2 GoE. It seems like an inefficient way of going about things, to compound penalties like that.
    Last edited by prettykeys; 05-06-2010 at 06:20 PM.

  3. #18
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    So aren't these rule changes basically same as the ones JSF proposed some time after the Olympics?
    No. The talk of intermediary values for triple jumps have been talked about for a while. It was expected that the next Congress would talk about this issue. Here's something interesting. According to the communication rule 1609, this rule change seems final.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...t=73440&page=2

  4. #19
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by #1Kerryfan View Post
    I think all the men are going to do quads and all the ladies are going to do triple-triples now. We might even see more ladies attempting triple axels. To be honest, I'm kind of sorry they did this. It eggs on the Stojkos and Plushenkos of the world who think hard jumps are all that skating is all about.......
    Yeah, well. Thank God! Or thank ISU.

  5. #20
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    It seems clear that the new scale of values is intended to reflect as accurately as possible the actual difficulty of each element, instead of just marching along with .5 increments.

    The Salchow is now only a tenth of a point higher than the toe-loop, but there is a big gap between the Salchow and the loop. The loop is now ranked as closer in difficulty to the flip.

    On the other hand, ther difference between the flip and the Lutz has been increased. (Who is going to be the first to point poit that this hurts Mao Asada and helps Yu-na Kim. ) Maybe this is a forerunner to stricter edge calls.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    On the other hand, ther difference between the flip and the Lutz has been increased. (Who is going to be the first to point poit that this hurts Mao Asada and helps Yu-na Kim. ) Maybe this is a forerunner to stricter edge calls.
    Hmm, the thing is, I don't think it necessarily helps Yu-Na. It's not like Yu-Na only does the Lutz jump and not Flip; she does the Flip jump as well, so her score is hurt from the lower BV for 3F as well. Of course, she doesn't have two Flip jumps in LP like Mao does, but the lower scale of GOE for triple jumps will hurt her score just as much since she usually gets higher GOE than everyone else.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    On the other hand, ther difference between the flip and the Lutz has been increased. (Who is going to be the first to point poit that this hurts Mao Asada and helps Yu-na Kim. )
    yeah, 0.2 will definitely change the outcome.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicalwords View Post
    It's not like Yu-Na only does the Lutz jump and not Flip; she does the Flip jump as well, so her score is hurt from the lower BV for 3F as well. Of course, she doesn't have two Flip jumps in LP like Mao does, but the lower scale of GOE for triple jumps will hurt her score just as much since she usually gets higher GOE than everyone else.
    well, Yuna might have to do two triple flips now, since the # of double axel attempts has been reduced to twice only.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    well, Yuna might have to do two triple flips now, since the # of double axel attempts has been reduced to twice only.
    Or she can bring back her lovely 3Lo

  10. #25
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    Can we please stop talking about this based solely on Yu-Na or Mao? There are other skaters in this world you know. These changes look reasonable to me as a whole and I don't think it favors anyone in particular except that there is definite emphasis on higher technical difficulty as they should be. I, myself, have voiced concerns about the value of the Double Axel and its accompanying GOE for quite some time and I am glad to see this suggestion be considered and acted upon. As for reducing the value of GOE on Triples, note the GOE has been slashed across the board for all jumps, including Quads. In the past, negative GOE on Quad follows a factor of 1.6, creating an imbalance between the upside and downside risk. Now, both sides are equal and at a reduced factor of 1.0 Such change will likely encourage more skaters to try the Quads. As for reducing the GOE on Triples, there has been some comments that the GOE on Triples have been too high. For example, a 3T has a BV of 4.0 but +2 GOE means, the jump essentially equals a Triple Lutz at 6.0 Or, Double Axel + 3 GOE = 3.5 + 3 > Triple Lutz. Clearly, the is a point about reducing the value of GOE slightly and I agree with these changes as well. This will give a little more emphasis on the BV, which is more objective than the GOE. With the reduced importance of GOE, the overall score will be lower than years past but it should encourage skaters to have more difficult technical content and the overall score should reflect those higher degree of technical difficulty as well.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoPC2018 View Post
    So aren't these rule changes basically same as the ones JSF proposed some time after the Olympics?
    No, they are not.

  12. #27
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Thank skating gods!!

    I lurrve all the changes. I'm really glad they made a new rule about skating on one foot for half of the step sequence.

    I do realize that there are other skaters besides Yuna and Mao, but I do think that all the rules put together does hurt Yuna and boosts Mao. Or rather, these new rule changes will ensure that Yuna isn't unfairly given advantage over Mao and other skaters.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I'm still a little confused about the whole Base< and GoE deal. For example, an underrotated 3A has a base value of 6.0, but since it's underrotated there's also a possible -1 to -2 GoE. It seems like an inefficient way of going about things, to compound penalties like that.
    It shouldn't be confusing because nothing new re: the GOE grading of these jumps have changed per say. In the past, when a 3A was downgraded, whether the judge knew about the < sign or otherwise, there is an expectation that the judge will penalize the jump through negative GOE accordingly. The compounded penalties have two purpose:

    1) It spreads the penalties of an UR or downgraded jump between the Technical Panel and the judges, thus mitigating the problem of any potential irregularity in judgment or error. In the 6.0 system, any determination of UR rested entirely on the individual judges, therefore, someone who is biased for whatever reasons could turn a blind eye on a mistake.

    2) An UR jump that receives < can still have different degree of UR. On one end, the jump could have been superb and really didn't deserve any other penalties aside from the UR and maybe due to positive mitigating factor, the jump could still get positive if not neutral GOE so the two phase system allows this flexibility to exist. On the other hand, another < jump could be so obviously cheated and that the skater really isn't close in mastering the said jump, giving such jump a 70% value without further penalty would in effect encourage future behavior where the skater may hope to get lucky with 70% of the value of a difficult jump. Therefore, a penalty in the form of negative GOE will dampen such desire to cheat the system. The latter can't be more clear in the case of Mr. Morozov who openly told the press that he intended his skater to do 3/3 in Vancouver so that even an UR happens, she will not lose many points. As it turned out, his skater got destroyed using such stupid strategy.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I do realize that there are other skaters besides Yuna and Mao, but I do think that all the rules put together does hurt Yuna and boosts Mao. Or rather, these new rule changes will ensure that Yuna isn't unfairly given advantage over Mao and other skaters.
    I think it would be rather foolish to hold such belief because you are assuming Yu-Na and her coach are static or something and that they won't react to these changes and adapt. The 3A that Mao did on the Japan SOI where she UR, two feet, and stepped out will receive exactly 6.0 - 3.0 = 3.0 which is less than the value of a Double Axel. Better than before? Yes, but not by much. The < sign being shown will also likely reduce the GOE of skaters prone to UR, not to mention, the value of the Triple Flip has been reduced.

  15. #30
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    Funny thing is, I can make a case for most of the rules ISU comes up with every year. My main concern is that ISU is resorting to immediate remedy whenever there is a "controversy". With these rules in place, the possible downside is that we will see more of "Kostner in 2008" situations, and there will be controversy along the line of "quality is not taken into account enough". Will ISU revert to the old rules then?

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