Sarah Hughes

[Tonichelle]

Oh, you say that is gone?

I'd like to see you find a quote of mine where I have. I've never said that. I said to get rid of that 'human element' we'd have to do away with judging entirely.

[janetfan]

I'd like to see you find a quote of mine where I have. I've never said that. I said to get rid of that 'human element' we'd have to do away with judging entirely.

Fair enough - and I will take your word on that.

I am getting more used to CoP and think some of the rule changes will be good. Sasha, if she returns will not like the spirals being changed but I think many were getting bored by the same three positions for three seconds. That is something Chen-Lu mentioned along with the levels on spins limiting the creative options for skaters and choreographers.
They are all trying to do the samething in order to score the most points.

I will admit I think CoP has been pretty good at getting placements right. No system depending so much on human judgement and character is ever going to be perfect.

[Olympia]

Mathman, I'm going to explore all the stuff you posted later--I'm at work now--but I wanted to thank you for putting it in here. Somehow the beauties of math (of which I'm greatly ignorant, on a very low step of the pyramid as of yet, but I love the thought of them) seem to belong in discussions of both skating and music--oh, and quilting!--and when I read about them, they blend in with the way skating marks off time and space on the ice. Good luck on your paper about Fermat!

[janetfan]

That makes perfect sense to me, especially if Salander sees herself as a geometer more that an algebraist.

By an astonishing coincidence -- this is true -- I have just put the finishing touches on a paper titled "Picture proofs of Fermat's Last Theorem," which I hope to publish next year. The point of the paper is that if you have strong enough geometric intuition you can cut to the chase and "see" why certain mathematical results just have to be true.

This approach to mathematics, by the way, was the hallmark of the mathematics of classical India. A perfect proof in the Indian tradition consists simply of a picture that is so convincingly drawn that the accompanying proof consists of a single Sanskrit word, "Pasya!" (Behold!)

(I thank Seniorita on this board for helping me get the Greek version right: Óπερ Éδει Δείξαι. )

Thanks mm.
The character in the book is Swedish, and an anti social, self-taught high school dropout who
makes a living as a hacker under the pretense of being a private investigator. She does math puzzles for fun.
The revelation she experiences does not say whether she sees a true of false solution, just that she visualizes something that makes it clear the answer is puzzling to most because it is simple rather than complex.

I will let you know what she realized after May 25.......

Good luck with your paper and maybe you will let us know where to find it after if gets published.

[prettykeys]

Very exaggerated criticism. Tara had to be second in terms of difficulty. I loved both skaters. It seemed like destiny for both. What warriors! Well, I wish Hughes would try a comeback! People are so obsessed with these judges and their slo mo UR calls. Well, I guess no one can say she's been outskated yet in an Olympics.

Not that exaggerated, and uh yeah, I can say Sarah has been outskated; I bet many can. Figure skating is more than only about jumps--underrotated jumps, at that. As a casual skating fan who'd seen Kristi on TV in 1992, I watched with puzzlement and a little disgust when Sarah's obviously underrotated/sloppy jumps were apparently accepted. ("Skating going forward", my ***.) Her underrotations were obvious to me, a casual who'd never scrutinized the technical aspects of any programs, and not even in slow-motion! And why? Because they got in the way of me actually enjoying the performance as a whole. They were that distracting. I try really hard to steer away from criticizing any skaters because I know they're all just trying to do their best, but for whatever reason Sarah's Olympic LP bothers me a lot. She truly did skate freely--and recklessly, like she didn't give a hoot about anything, including polish and technique. I took it as an assault to my eyes and a lack of respect for the sport.

Cheated jumps aside, Sarah had many great qualities as a skater. I often felt the harsh criticism that her skating faced was way exaggerated. She had interesting programs, good in-betweens (more so than Kwan and Cohen I'd say at the time), great spins, solid basics and a good sense of musicality, even if she was a little less polished than some of the other top skaters.

This is a very fair analysis. Thanks for highlighting Sarah's better qualities while admitting at least one of her flaws. This is the way to defend a skater, not overlook their shortcomings...

Certainly true with Sarah. Probably true with Tara, whose jumps were tiny. But Tara did do a difficult 3-Loop/3-Loop, which no one before or since to my recollection has done. And I say this as someone who is definitely not a Tara fan! I do think that Yu Na's 3-3's are the biggest, most powerful and prettiest of any lady skater.

I agree with you on YuNa's 3-3's being the prettiest. I also (personally) consider Tara's 1998 LP the most technically demanding of any we have seen from the ladies, and also one of the freest and most joyful. Nice to watch, too.

Yea, but I don't think anyone expected her to win the gold. I still remember when she won, my reaction was like "what?!!!" She skated well, but there was nothing special about it. Of course, seeing OGM slip pass Michelle a second time didn't help either. But I guess I was more tolerant when Tara won, because her performance was much more impressive than Sarah's.

Second of all, maybe how memorable Shizuka's skate is depends on where you are from. As much as I think Sarah deserved her win, I don't find her skate nearly as memorable as Tara's or Oksana's or Kristi's or even Sasha's silver medal performances in 2006.
Sarah was an amazing skater but there is something awkward about her and it's not one of those skates that I feel like watching over and over again. That's just me.
Even so, her victory was much more memorable to me than Shizuka's. But I suspect it's because I'm American and Sarah was American and her win was huge news that Olympics whereas in 2006 the huge news from the American perspective was that Sasha fell twice in her LP and lost to a Japanese skater.
I'm sure Shizuka's gold medal victory was HUGELY memorable in Japan, however.
As for the skates themselves, I remember that Sarah's skate was free and daring but that I found her style a bit awkward. I remember that Shizuka's skate was reserved but very elegant and I remember her gorgeous Ina Bauer and her spiral positions.

miki and LayFan's feelings are exactly mine. I thought Shizuka's win was boring and the ladies event in 2006 as a whole was underwhelming, but at least she was pleasant to watch. (I think that year was the most disappointing for the ladies in recent memory.) Outside of that competition, Shizuka is impressive and beautiful. 2002 was more memorable for me, but for different reasons...

I agree. Other skaters have been under pressure from their countries to win, but generally those skaters have been part of a dynasty: Witt for East Germany, all the various Russians/Soviets, American girls. For example, while Michelle was under pressure to win at both the '98 and '02 Olympics, there was someone else in the wings from her country--who in both cases in fact won. Similarly, Mao could have messed up royally, and Japan was still sitting on an existing OGM from the '06 Olympics. By contrast, YuNa was her country's one and only, in this Olympics and in all previous Games as well. Add to that the traditional decades-old rivalry with Japan, and the pressure must have been beyond our capacity to imagine. A Korean friend of mine said that practically everyone in Korea was watching. Whether YuNa felt every ounce of the pressure that night is not the issue. It was in all ways unprecedented. Kudos to Orser for somehow helping her rise above the tension when it counted the most. Her demeanor that night was as noteworthy as the size of her jumps.

Thank you for highlighting all these differences when it comes to the pressure that was on YuNa at the Olympics. There is a difference between the subjective pressure someone feels and the external pressure that is on someone. Just because YuNa said she didn't feel pressure doesn't mean there weren't enormous expectations on her shoulders that perhaps other well-seasoned skaters would not have been able to carry. It's to YuNa and her team's credit that she was so-well prepared and in the zone. (As an aside, as evidenced by her SP, Mao was also, but it came a little too late in the season so she was less assured when it came time for her LP, I think.) On the other hand, the protests about how skating fans have no alleged right to say whether Sarah or other skaters didn't have much pressure on them...are silly. Because while we can't know how someone feels, we can say that the circumstances surrounding certain skaters appear to be lighter than for others.

There is always a teeny element of luck in any sporting event. Sarah "made her own luck" by skating her best at the Olympics. But even so, there were a number of things outside of Sarah's control that had to fall just right.

Sarah was somewhat held up in the short program. She received scores as low as 5.1 and 5.2 in technical merit, and could easily have been placed behind both Funie Suguri and Maria Butryskaya. If she had come out of the SP in 5th or 6th it would not have mattered how brilliant her free skate was.

Plus, in the SP many observers thought Slutskaya should have placed first with Michelle second. If that had happened, Slutskaya would have won the overall gold no matter what Sarah did in the LP.

Then in the LP, Michelle did not have to beat Sarah to win the gold. All she had to do was beat Slutskaya for second. Michelle fell and Slutskaya teetered and tottered but stayed on her feet, inserting herself between Sarah and Michelle in the LP and giving Sarah the victory, five judges to four. Slutskaya and Hughes were tied in factored placements overall, and Sarah won on the tie-breaker.

Well, that's sports. Good for her.

Darn it, Mathman. I loved Irina...and now I have to know how she may have won if the judging had gone slightly differently???

[fairly4]

as far as pressure goes--yu-na didn't have as much as michelle--
yu-na had a breather why- the cop in short gave her a lot of wiggle room to mess up in the long. just look at how badly she skated at worlds and she still got 2nd
under y6'0;s i doubt if she would have had that much wiggle room
but also--it was know that they was rigging the scores for yu-na since she jumped up the seniors-her and mao was the next it skaters--so they overlook their mistakes--which they didn't do for michelle in 1998 and 2002.
they overlook tara and sarah's and even irina's . but michelle mistakes was not overlooked and given the beneift of the doubt-i wouldn't doubt if the usfsa told them to nail michelle for everly ittle mistake and over look tara's for being the next sonja heinir (white) russia wanted irina overlook and the usfsa--didn't loke michelle not having a coach in 2002 so they nailed her..
if you don't think race plays a part-see gymnastics went back over 8 years to talke away the chinese gold medal --but what about paul hamms medal, patterson medal, michael johnson--medal with steriods.
in fact chinese when it comes to isu/ioc are more nailed than anyother nationality and race. sorry but in the olympics especially at the olympics politics and race plays a part.
they thought they could get more money for tara, sarah than michelle -who is chinese american--sorry --but it does play a part.
if they take out ethics in meetings, what part do they play in sport--none in ioc /isu/ if you aren't ethical you don't know how to play fair, above board-reproach.
unfortunately figure skating is subjective to begin with-so it makes it more imperative to be above reproach. but if the sport never was-how does it get itself to be that way--when all it waants is moneyno matter the cost.

[seniorita]

(I thank Seniorita on this board for helping me get the Greek version right: Óπερ Éδει Δείξαι. )

I had forgotten about that! What??? for this big contribution by me you only refer to Golden Skates?? Oh please it is not necessary, as long as you dedicate the book to me and I get the Nobel next year somehow. Just that, I m a modest person. :o

[Olympia]

I had forgotten about that! What??? for this big contribution by me you only refer to Golden Skates?? Oh please it is not necessary, as long as you dedicate the book to me and I get the Nobel next year somehow. Just that, I m a modest person. :o

>giggle<

Tell us all where to show up for this double ceremony (except I don't think there's a Math Nobel...what do math smarties get, the Fields Medal? Something like that), and we'll all come by to cheer your speeches. You'll be able to tell who your skating friends are; we'll be the ones arguing about the point value of the triple axel done in combination....

[janetfan]

Here is a favorite of mine - it's Sarah's Wheaties Box (with the General Mills press release below the box).

"Hughes entered the long program in fourth place following Tuesday's short program. She embraced the challenge, turning in the performance of a lifetime by flawlessly skating the most difficult program ever attempted in the competition's history. Her brilliant routine secured the gold medal and a place in figure skating history for the 16-year-old from Great Neck, N.Y."

I saw this listed on ebay - but it was sold - for a whopping $8.50.

I guess RD beat me to it

http://www.mrbreakfast.com/cereal_uc...=396&picid=616

[princess9]

Well, I'd still like an answer since the math/stats geeks (fond word!) do come out on this board, how Hughes and now Tara would be scored under CoP. Well maybe the CoP students will watch these skates in their 'spare time' and give an idea. Bias and politics aside, it seems like it allows for more accountability from the judges and they continue to tweak it.

As for sheer artistry, I guess we get to watch the gala skates to see their identity or their pro careers (if there is to be much professional skating in the USA in the future). I find myself watching and wishing that the skaters I like had the place and opportunity to grow up and be their best as in the golden era. The current system and lack of funds seems to prohibit that, along with economy/decline in Television and show audiences. We will not likely see an American again like Kwan who competed and reached potential after 12 years. Times have changed, I reckon, for good.

[R.D.]

I guess RD beat me to it

Huh? I never posted that link.

[janetfan]

Well, I'd still like an answer since the math/stats geeks (fond word!) do come out on this board, how Hughes and now Tara would be scored under CoP. Well maybe the CoP students will watch these skates in their 'spare time' and give an idea. Bias and politics aside, it seems like it allows for more accountability from the judges and they continue to tweak it.

.

A fair question and maybe some others can answer it much better than me.

I don't think so much about how their old programs would have been scored - I wonder more how much they would have changed for the CoP and how successful they might have been under the new system.

For starter's Sarah might not be trying 3Loops as the second jump in her 3x3 combos.
Both would have to be more concerned with edges and UR's. They would try to do the same spins as the other top skaters, the same spiral sequences, very similar steps, etc.

I think of the painting sketches that come with numbers that are color coded. You know - painting by numbers. The CoP is like "skating by numbers" and Tara and Sarah along with their coaches and choreographers would try to do things to score points under the new system. They would try to be as much like the other top skaters as possible. The judges seem to like that

[seniorita]

Well, I'd still like an answer since the math/stats geeks (fond word!) do come out on this board, how Hughes and now Tara would be scored under CoP. Well maybe the CoP students will watch these skates in their 'spare time' and give an idea. Bias and politics aside, it seems like it allows for more accountability from the judges and they continue to tweak it.

I leave work to Mathman, I m just here to collect the prizes.

Now i m used to Cop and i was watching 2002 again, I caught myself asking how they could even put the score in 6.0, it looks like I forgot it was placements rather than marks, so I was watching this competition and wondering why 5.7 instead of 5.8. It looked me like the overall impression was marked, nothing else. And didnt get if the deduction was on spirals or jumps, a mess! That happens if you are brainwashed with points difference and then you watch 6.0 judging!
In Hughes case by the way I remember in the sp the comments like 'she is gonna get an adge call" by hamilton or the lady, and the marks didnt show it.

[princess9]

The most annoying thing for me is seeing how badly so many gals do those same three spiral positions that only look good on Sasha, Alisssa, Mirai and Mao. Joannie modifies hers to her flexibility and so she looks ok. Kim does not have the line, straight legs, toe point and thus she looks a little less polished. I don't know how we can stop the cloning going on. Only in the footwork do we see some individuality. Sometimes I just get so frustrated at the "packed" busy programs that are required under CoP. Guess I enjoyed more of the old 6.0 programs more.

[Mathman]

Hey, where's Fosse on this thread.

Fosse is the president of the Golden Skate Sarah Hughes fan club. She likes Emily, too. Hasn't been around for a while.