Sarah Hughes

[Layfan]

The most annoying thing for me is seeing how badly so many gals do those same three spiral positions that only look good on Sasha, Alisssa, Mirai and Mao. Joannie modifies hers to her flexibility and so she looks ok. Kim does not have the line, straight legs, toe point and thus she looks a little less polished. I don't know how we can stop the cloning going on. Only in the footwork do we see some individuality. Sometimes I just get so frustrated at the "packed" busy programs that are required under CoP. Guess I enjoyed more of the old 6.0 programs more.

Amen to that.

But hopefully as Janetfan pointed out the new rules will change that. I think there are some COP programs that I've enjoyed as much as 6.0 programs. Probably my favorites are Kim Yuna's Dance Macabre, James Bond and Sasha's Romeo and Juliet and Dark Eyes. Those programs stood out from the rest. They were interesting. They were about something. David Wilson is my all-time favorite choreographer for the moment. And hopefully the new rules on spirals will give choreographers a bit more freedom.

[brownfox]

The most annoying thing for me is seeing how badly so many gals do those same three spiral positions that only look good on Sasha, Alisssa, Mirai and Mao. Joannie modifies hers to her flexibility and so she looks ok. Kim does not have the line, straight legs, toe point and thus she looks a little less polished. I don't know how we can stop the cloning going on. Only in the footwork do we see some individuality. Sometimes I just get so frustrated at the "packed" busy programs that are required under CoP. Guess I enjoyed more of the old 6.0 programs more.

This is just another nitpicking to me. Yuna doesn't have an extension like Sasha but I don't think it's bad.

[Olympia]

The most annoying thing for me is seeing how badly so many gals do those same three spiral positions that only look good on Sasha, Alisssa, Mirai and Mao. Joannie modifies hers to her flexibility and so she looks ok. Kim does not have the line, straight legs, toe point and thus she looks a little less polished. I don't know how we can stop the cloning going on. Only in the footwork do we see some individuality. Sometimes I just get so frustrated at the "packed" busy programs that are required under CoP. Guess I enjoyed more of the old 6.0 programs more.

I'm with you! It's interesting that as much as we praise Michelle and Irina for being the giants of their time--and they were--it's Sasha who in some ways has had the most influence on skaters that followed her. Anyone with flexibility now does that leg-up-to-the-ear move and the spin with the leg to the nose, which Sasha premiered as far as I can recall. She also raised the bar for spirals, with that 180-degree position she and just a few others such as Bobek could achieve. Now the bendy skaters all do the Sasha spiral, which is a lovely thing, I must say. Among the newer skaters, Mao and of course Caroline Zh. and Mirai can produce lovely spiral positions. Much as I love YuNa, though, I must be honest and say that I don't look to her for a beautiful spiral. (Well, no one is perfect. I adore and admire Michelle in almost every regard, but no one can pretend that her Ina Bauer was anywhere close to Shizuka's.)

But Sasha achieved those moves as an expression of her individuality. Skaters now have to incorporate them almost as part of a checklist. With all the changes of position required to raise the level of the movement, the simple grace of a really good position is lost. "'Packed' busy programs" is indeed a great way to characterize the results of the current rules. I do hope things are allowed to change somehow.

I think the idea of a code of points does help show how and why one skater is ranked higher than another in a particular competition. But it still needs refinement and re-conception, so that a skater's individuality can come out.

[janetfan]

Personally I liked the way Sandra Bezic used spirals to enhance the programs of some of her skaters. Watching Kristi and Chen-lu as they used spiral positions it never felt forced or awkward - and it always had to do with using the bodyline to express the music.

Nicole and then Michelle used it as a signature move with the emphasis on a beautiful line that flowed (Michelle almost seemed to float).

Sasha remains for me the master of spiral positions and Mao, Mirai and Caroline don't come close to her imo - although they appear to be determined to imitate Sasha, I don't think they have her wow factor or elegance. Sasha sold it better but PE was always her strength.

I hope the three positions for three seconds - a rule that must have been championed by a very unmusical person will be a thing of the past.

Spirals seem to be better used as a MIF to enhance a skaters interpretation and not as an element.

Some feel the same way about steps. But can the CoP thrive and be relevant without categorizing every move a skater makes?

[ImaginaryPogue]

Some feel the same way about steps. But can the CoP thrive and be relevant without categorizing every move a skater makes?

Good question. How do you mean thrive? Do you mean solely from an American POV? After all, figure skating is more popular than ever in Japan and South Korea, and the host of upcoming juniors/young seniors from Russia suggests that a renaissance is possible there too (and the depression in figure skating there had to do with the exodus of coaches and the natural talent elsewhere, not COP - agreed?). If you mean solely from an American perspective, I think all that's needed is a top American in the ladies department. If Kim was American, I think figure skating would be as big as it was before. But someone who does COP well while still being a singular, marketable entity. Kwan was singular and marketable - her competitive strength, her longevity, her class - all make her an ideal of some sort. As did Lipinski's youthful enthusiasm and go-for-broke approach. Sarah Hughes underdog story and the way that things aligned for her to win. Yamaguchi and Kerrigan also had sellable aspects. Someone who does COP well who you have a rooting interest in means that you're willing to make a bigger effort to understand the nuances.

But what can COP do to encourage that? I think your question speaks to a larger difficulty. Look at the discipline that's been hurt the most by COP: pairs. Excluding Shen/Zhao (and they straddle the line), are there any skaters who've enjoyed most of their success as COP pairs that belong on the all time's list? Pairs has become the most regimented - there are so many more elements that they need to do, it seems. I don't know how to fix that, though. Or more accurately, every single suggestion seems to push it to the realm of a beauty pageant and I abhor pageants.

To me, complaining about the intricacies of COP while watching figure skating is like complaining about the intricacies of the English language while reading DeLillo or Dos Passos, though.

[R.D.]

Hey, where's Fosse on this thread.

Fosse is the president of the Golden Skate Sarah Hughes fan club. She likes Emily, too. Hasn't been around for a while.

[Robeye]

To me, complaining about the intricacies of COP while watching figure skating is like complaining about the intricacies of the English language while reading DeLillo or Dos Passos, though.

(at least about DeLillo).

[prettykeys]

To me, complaining about the intricacies of COP while watching figure skating is like complaining about the intricacies of the English language while reading DeLillo or Dos Passos, though.

I don't completely get the analogy, since I don't know DeLillo or Dos Passos, but I think one of the most remarkable things about the English language is that although it can be intricate and complex, it is also extremely malleable and dynamic; creative ways to bend and twist the language away from the "proper standards" are often celebrated. On the other hand, doesn't the CoP dictate more precisely what and how things will be judged? It is a rigid system. I think there is both good and bad to that.

[seniorita]

Insisting that she had superior 3-3 that now skaters dont have, doesnt it come in contradiction with this season's mantra that quads - or the 11 quads in mens LP in 2002 dont mean anything about skaters quality comparing to now? If quads are not a factor to judge, neither are her jumps.

[janetfan]

Good question. How do you mean thrive? .

To me, complaining about the intricacies of COP while watching figure skating is like complaining about the intricacies of the English language while reading DeLillo or Dos Passos, though.

I was referring to the basics and not intricasies.
I am still wondering when CoP judges will be honest or competent - take your choice - and start calling the pcs better.

I can start with TR and wonder if most judges were absent on the day it was taught in judging school.

Other fans might mention IN - some skaters ignore music but still get scored like they were Gene Kelly on skates. Some skaters have intricate CH and not for 3-6 second bursts but throughout the whole program. Yet there scores are the same as some very dumbed down choreo we see.

I see little relationship to some of the scores for pcs in relationship to what happens on the ice.

The fact that many here say, "well since jumps don't get enough points the judges are compensating for this by giving higher marks in the pcs."

My answer to that is "two wrongs don't make a right."

Or better, NO, NO,NO it is wrong and blatant cheating when that happens. It happens all the time.

I admit COP confuses me - mostly when they don't follow their own rules.

[Layfan]

I see little relationship to some of the scores for pcs in relationship to what happens on the ice.

Sigh. This is my biggest difficulty with COP, too. People try to explain - well, Rachael's choreography was more intrincate, she had more transitions than Mirai, she had more complex footwork than Mirai, she technically interpreted her music well. Well, okay if you break it down like that ... But the overall effect ... Did she look as graceful and effortless as Mirai at nationals? Heck, no. And not even close.

Frankly, I think judging figure skating necessarily has a very subjective factor to it - MUCH more than other judged sports like gymnastics or diving - and trying to take the subjectivity out completely is folly.

[R.D.]

One way to make skating more objective is just throw out the damn PCS already. At least the TES is based on CONCRETE actions on the ice...

But no, most will argue, we can't really do that, otherwise it'll be more like jump skating. Catch-22, folks...whatcha gonna do.

[rtureck]

Yu-Na's 3lz/3t and 2a/3t blows any combo done by Sarah and Tara out of the water. Not to mention Yu-Na's difficult entrances into her jumps and superior spins and connecting moves. Sarah may have landed two 3/3s and Tara a 3/3 and a sequence, but I believe Yu-Na's SP and LP had more content and technically more difficult overall, so she should go down as the technically greatest Women OGM. I wish Yu-Na had done a 3loop then no one would question her greatness. But even without it, I still think the quality of her HUGE jumps with great height and distance makes up for lack of a 3 loop. All 3 were/are elite skaters with competitive drive, no question about it. However, with the adjustments made in regards to URs, both may have benefited more in the upcoming season than they would've beforehand.

Tara has pretty much said it is hard to defend your title. Sarah clearly lost motivation and the following season after OGM was quite underwhelming. Tara left the scene. I hope Yu-Na does keep on competing and up to her standards. That would be a true test of a Champion. But if she does leave, well, it's been quite an experience!

I think making a case of the greatest tech OGM is totally fruitless, b/c tech is forever going forward, who knows by 2014 some Russian super girl may land triple axel/triple, and have all the speed/flow difficult entries toe, even if tht dos not have happen in 2014, someday in the future that will happen. I totally disagree with you about YuNa being so call greatest OGM technically. Hello, I love to see must one solo triple loop. And BTW, is layback spin tech too? Sarah has a lovely one, Tara has one, and Yuna's???

I am a Sarah Fan, and to answer someone asking earlier what was her 2002 sp, oh well she was 4th in placement after sp. (And as a young teenager she was pissed off at the judges too). Anyway, I do agree with the placement on the podium in 2002, and I am huge Mk fan.

originally posted by janetfan

Nicole and then Michelle used it as a signature move with the emphasis on a beautiful line that flowed (Michelle almost seemed to float).

Sasha remains for me the master of spiral positions and Mao, Mirai and Caroline don't come close to her imo - although they appear to be determined to imitate Sasha, I don't think they have her wow factor or elegance. Sasha sold it better but PE was always her strength.

Definitely agree on Nicole, Mk and Sasha. But I fail to see how Mao, Mirai and Caroline are imitating Sasha. Under COP, all skaters' spiral positions look the same. Shizuka's 06 spiral sequence was an exception. I have seen Mao tried that. Anyway, I know Sasha Cohen PR machine had tried in the past to (TM) her moves, oh yeah the famous SashaCurl(TM) skated on flat, but unless the OLys tech committee gives the blessing those self promotion (TM) are not hers. Therefore I don't see skaters copying her. AFAIK, MK is CAroline's role model, Mao and Arakawa are Mirai's, and none of them have mentioned Cohen as their role model.

[Tonichelle]

One way to make skating more objective is just throw out the damn PCS already. At least the TES is based on CONCRETE actions on the ice...

But no, most will argue, we can't really do that, otherwise it'll be more like jump skating. Catch-22, folks...whatcha gonna do.

[janetfan]

Just what we need - throw out the presentation aspects and make everything about the TES.
But, of course the GOE would most likely be increased - and the subjectivity along with it.

Geez - when does the World Cup start so I can wonder about offsides calls, red and yellow cards and what that player's intentions were when the ball bounced off his hand?

Nothing like a real sport with nothing to argue about