Sarah Hughes

[Olympia]

Rotfl!

But I must confess: If I look deeply into my soul, I'm probably not a skating fan because it's a sport I enjoy. I love skating because it's an art I enjoy. What do I know about sports? I'm happy to see all the jumps, and I appreciate that skaters are among the best-conditioned athletes in the world, but that's not what speeds up my heartbeat when I watch. Someone does a triple toe and someone else does a triple lutz? Cool. Someone sticks her leg out behind her in a vague way, and someone else does a 180-degree spiral? Now, that I'll remember.

Enjoy the World Cup!

[R.D.]

I don't think it's fair to compare skaters across generations. Sport moves forward; what's great now will likely be commonplace in 10 years

[gmyers]

I don't think it's fair to compare skaters across generations. Sport moves forward; what's great now will likely be commonplace in 10 years

Flashback to 2006 and what was great then is nearly gone now! LOL quad requiem time.

[Olympia]

I don't think it's fair to compare skaters across generations. Sport moves forward; what's great now will likely be commonplace in 10 years

Technically, that's certainly true--well, with the exception cited by gmyers. But with skating, artistic excellence doesn't always move across a line of progression. Maybe this is an unfair comparison for several reasons, but it's a good contrast for argument's sake. Compare Janet Lynn in her best performance from 1972 with, say, Rachael Flatt in her best performance today. You don't have to pick the one who's better, but artistically, which one commands the ice and the music? Because that's such an important part of skating, you kind of have to take that into consideration.

What I'm saying is that I think you're right that it's unfair to compare skaters across generations, but I disagree that what's great now will necessarily be commonplace in 10 years. The paradox of skating!

[ImaginaryPogue]

I don't completely get the analogy, since I don't know DeLillo or Dos Passos, but I think one of the most remarkable things about the English language is that although it can be intricate and complex, it is also extremely malleable and dynamic; creative ways to bend and twist the language away from the "proper standards" are often celebrated. On the other hand, doesn't the CoP dictate more precisely what and how things will be judged? It is a rigid system. I think there is both good and bad to that.

The more you know and understand about the English language (or any language), the more likely you are able to understand its grace notes, nuances and subtleties. If all I read is "See Spot Run" or the Mr. Men series and then I try to read DeLillo/Shakespeare/Fitzgerald (or Proust or Thomas Mann or Miguel Cervantes etc), is it truly fair for me to criticize those books as flawed simply because I haven't made the effort to be on their level? Or lets use poetry as an example. When you're young, poetry us about things like haiku, limericks, and rhymes. Things that sound essentially (whether it's the 5-7-5 or the abab). This is poetry at it's most obvious. Eventually, when you get older, poetry becomes about metaphors, language and metre - things that are less obvious to you but hopefully you learn.

When people complain about the sport losing it's popularity, they're complaining about the audience that doesn't know the different between the jumps. Those that don't know about the intricacies of spins or spirals. They know the obvious stuff (the big jumps) and might recognize extreme excellence in other areas (I'm thinking of Lambiel's spins, or Yagudin's iconic footwork), but overall, the audience hasn't taken time to learn the differences (why exactly is a triple lutz harder than a triple toe). So trying to get back the audience, by definition, means buffing out the intricacies that I adore. Means bringing skating down to a level that instead of being a piece of Mahler, it's a Britney Spears song (to mix metaphors even further)

Here's the thing. I do consider myself a COP man. But I did watch 6.0 skating when it was showing and I didn't love it all that much, and rewatching it on youtube I still don't get all that excited. I don't get all that enthusiastic about Lipinski or Butraskaya or even Kwan, despite truly respecting their achievements (I adore Chen Lu, though. Don't ask me why her and not the rest). But then I watch COP programs - programs like "Le Tango de Roxanne" or "Samson and Delilah" or "Clair de Lune." This season from the men we got Chaplin and La Strada, Phantom and William Tell, the flow of Jeremy Abbott and the humour of Ryan Bradley. And all were celebrated. I know. Men don't have the quad, and it's a sad day in figureskateville. But I see programs bursting at the seams with creative ingenuity and athleticism in ways that I enjoy.

I was referring to the basics and not intricasies.
I am still wondering when CoP judges will be honest or competent - take your choice - and start calling the pcs better.

I can start with TR and wonder if most judges were absent on the day it was taught in judging school.

Other fans might mention IN - some skaters ignore music but still get scored like they were Gene Kelly on skates. Some skaters have intricate CH and not for 3-6 second bursts but throughout the whole program. Yet there scores are the same as some very dumbed down choreo we see.

I see little relationship to some of the scores for pcs in relationship to what happens on the ice.

The fact that many here say, "well since jumps don't get enough points the judges are compensating for this by giving higher marks in the pcs."

My answer to that is "two wrongs don't make a right."

Or better, NO, NO,NO it is wrong and blatant cheating when that happens. It happens all the time.

I admit COP confuses me - mostly when they don't follow their own rules.

You and me both. But that's not a COP thing, that's a judging thing.

Sigh. This is my biggest difficulty with COP, too. People try to explain - well, Rachael's choreography was more intrincate, she had more transitions than Mirai, she had more complex footwork than Mirai, she technically interpreted her music well. Well, okay if you break it down like that ... But the overall effect ... Did she look as graceful and effortless as Mirai at nationals? Heck, no. And not even close.

Frankly, I think judging figure skating necessarily has a very subjective factor to it - MUCH more than other judged sports like gymnastics or diving - and trying to take the subjectivity out completely is folly.

And that's just it - I don't think it's "not even close." I know Nagasu's prettier to watch, but I like Flatt when she's on. Subjectively, I'd rather watch Flatt's junior worlds winning LP or the 09/10 SP than anything Nagasu's done. So if you're arguing for subjectivity, then you can't ignore those that disagree.

[rtureck]

This is just another nitpicking to me. Yuna doesn't have an extension like Sasha but I don't think it's bad.

There is nothing nitpicking about Yuna's spiral in princfess0 post. She definitely does not have the extension toe point and amplitude like Sasha, Mirai, or Mao. princess was just stating the obvious. Maybe some fans think that is good, or super. One more bonus for the new rules, since spiral sequence is not a requierment, maybe Yuna will delete and drop the spiral sequence completely from her program, and tht to me is good

[brownfox]

There is nothing nitpicking about Yuna's spiral in princfess0 post. She definitely does not have the extension toe point and amplitude like Sasha, Mirai, or Mao. princess was just stating the obvious. Maybe some fans think that is good, or super. One more bonus for the new rules, since spiral sequence is not a requierment, maybe Yuna will delete and drop the spiral sequence completely from her program, and tht to me is good

She doesn't have a perfect spiral position/sequence but I don't think it's bad. But that's my own opinion. Regarding the spiral sequence, the current rules didn't hurt her during the competition except maybe if she screwed up. So, whether she will drop it or not on the new rules, it doesn't even matter. And it's not like her federation lobbied it for her.

Besides Sasha is still the best in terms of extension, no one comes close.

Mao has her own weakness. Mirai has her own weakness. No one is perfect.

[rtureck]

She doesn't have a perfect spiral position/sequence but I don't think it's bad. But that's my own opinion.

Of course thta is your opinion, did I just said tht, maybe her fans even prefer spirals w/o good extensions

Regarding the spiral sequence, the current rules didn't hurt her during the competition except maybe if she screwed up. So, whether she will drop it or not on the new rules, it doesn't even matter. And it's not like her federation lobbied it for her.

My point of hoping Yuna wil drop the spiral is not about points, it is about many posters' viewning pleasure (I am not the only one who prefer spirals with extensions) . Fed or no fed, I am glad some of us who prefer spirals with good extensions don't have to watch unpleasant spiral positions from so many skaters. For those fans who prefer spirals w/o good extensions you can always rewatch tapes.

Besides Sasha is still the best in terms of extension, no one comes close.

Hmm agree she has the best extension, but many skiaters do come much closer than others, and absence of Sasha competing, Mirai, Carline and Mao's spiral positions are some of the best among the ladies who are competing today

[brownfox]

Maybe because it's not a big deal, like I said it didn't hurt her, so, why bother?

[rtureck]

Maybe because it's not a big deal, like I said it didn't hurt her, so, why bother?

Ppl bother about their viewing preferences and pleasure, afterall that is why most ppl watch fs, for their own pleasure. Like I said, when ppl bring up the topic of extension of spirals at least in this round of discussion it is not about points.

[brownfox]

Ppl bother about their viewing preferences and pleasure, afterall that is why most ppl watch fs, for their own pleasure. Like I said, when ppl bring up the topic of extension of spirals at least in this round of discussion it is not about points.

Because it is a big deal maybe we need a survey from the viewers/fans then.

[rtureck]

Because it is a big deal maybe we need a survey from the viewers/fans then.

Please do not misquote me, I never said "big deal", maybe watching spirals w/o good extension is your big deal and your pleasure. Hey do whatever please you, if you want to make a survey about why ppl watch fs go for it. I think most ppl watch fs for viewing pleasure what other reason? For national pride? For bragging rights?

Back to topic, Sarah Hughes, is she in grad school now? BTW How is Emily doing? I think Emily is one of the skaters from the current generation who has a good falling leaf, and she has put tht in her programs a few yrs back. Sarah's falling leaf is not as good as Emily's

[princess9]

No not in grad school, rtureck. Someone said she is considering law school. I don't know about Emily. Yes, good falling leaf and one of the few skaters who skate with great attack. Different body than her sister but those Hughes girls are real competitors.

I doubt we need a GS poll to find out how much fans LOVE a well done spiral with different positions. Ladies and men work on this for years. No, Kim's poorer positions did not hurt her did they. But as you tried to explain to Brownfox who may be relatively new to skating, or young, or a fan of just Ms. Kim, we are talking about beauty and classical positions. Not CoP point totals, overscoring, etc.

Sarah did not have a totally straight free leg either in back attitude spiral. It was bent a little like Kim's. So much prettier when srtaight. But Sarah did have an exquisite layback with correct, beautiful leg position. I agree rtureck, we enjoy beauty of line in every position. It gives us pleasure. While Irina and Ito and Bonaly could compete with the current champions jump wise and even outjump most everyone, they often lost out on the artistic mark. They had often very awkward spirals and stroking and body lines. These ladies primarily succeeded as great jumpers, strong athletes. All three worked very hard to get some higher artistic scores as the sport was never just figure jumping.

Watching these skaters from 20 years ago, I would say that while fads and rules change, we have pushed the envelope as far as it will go re jumps in the ladies events and in the mens. Skaters like Yagudin are very rare. I think we can compare skaters who skated across many generations. Thank goodness for youtube as my collection only goes back a decade.

For me, skaters like Sasha, Mirai, the young Oksana, Alissa, Sato, Kristi, Yuka and others (watch Sumners as a pro, watch Kadavy as a pro) or Katia at any point in her career give me the most pleasure even when they don't jump a lot. I enjoy beautiful lines, edges as much as a difficuly 3x3 that someone flies into. This is what CoP is working towards. They will continue to tweak it.

The sad part for us in the USA is that TV has very little quality anything left. No wonder they won't buy FS coverage. Much cheaper to show some silly D list Hollywood couple and like voyeurs we tune in. I don;t know what to say about the decline of our culture. We have one, only one PBS and we don't see much ballet even anymore. The common man/woman in USA is losing out on the arts coverage and to many FS is an art, not a sport. SOI only did 40 cities this year. So, you Asians are very lucky the top folks are Asian and you have shows, good TV coverage, tours etc.

I would say to Brownfox that there are many reasons people get Gold at competitions. In FS, there has always been so much else that goes into medals. Some scores reflect reality of the skate. Some scores are about things that happen off ice. That's how it is. We strive for fairness but in a judged sport, many things factor into scores and placements.

Since the mathguys/stats girls are on this board and there are several who love to analyze, I'm disappointed none has answered my original question. ????

[lavender]

There is nothing nitpicking about Yuna's spiral in princfess0 post. She definitely does not have the extension toe point and amplitude like Sasha, Mirai, or Mao. princess was just stating the obvious. Maybe some fans think that is good, or super. One more bonus for the new rules, since spiral sequence is not a requierment, maybe Yuna will delete and drop the spiral sequence completely from her program, and tht to me is good

Unfortunately for me extension is important so that's one of the reason that I don't fully enjoy Yu na's programs. She doesn't have to have crazy extension like Mirai and Sasha. Sasha especially since I just realize she doesn't seem to be able to do a spiral on an edge. That's crazy how I never noticed this. Anyhoo if only Yu na could have a spiral at least like Michelle. Love Michelle's extension and the edges she uses for her spirals. No one does it better. I would love if Yu na drops the spiral period. The rest of her skating is enough.

[Mathman]

Unfortunately for me extension is important so that's one of the reason that I don't fully enjoy Yu na's programs. She doesn't have to have crazy extension like Mirai and Sasha.

Sasha especially since I just realize she doesn't seem to be able to do a spiral on an edge. That's crazy how I never noticed this.

That is a good point. Sasha has the most eye-pleasing spirals in the history of the sport. But the spiral is supposed to be an edge move. I think Yu-na gets a bad rap.

Here are Sasha's edges:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Biellmann.jpg Biellmann

http://www.windweaver.com/sasha/sasharj119321wa.jpg inside

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...hen_spiral.jpg outside

Here is Yu-na:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs42/f/20...eisenjimmy.jpg outside edge catch-foot

http://spn.chosun.com/site/data/img_...32300707_1.jpg inside edge

Anyhoo if only Yu na could have a spiral at least like Michelle. Love Michelle's extension and the edges she uses for her spirals. No one does it better.

http://blog.teenvogue.com/style__fas...helle_kwan.jpg
inside edge

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-conte...lle-kwan-6.jpg outside edge