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Thread: Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

  1. #241
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    ^^ For Alissa and Bebe though the statistics are pretty much irrelevant because they bomb nationals every other year. I mean Alissa's nats scores this year were low, but it was because she made tons of mistakes, her PCS were very similar to PCS she gets internationally when she skates WELL. Caroline too, did not skate very well at nationals this year and that explains her low score.

  2. #242
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ What is striking about these inflation rates is their consistency, Caroline Zhang being the perplexing outlier.

    Rachael Flatt: 7.96%
    Mirai Nagasu: 7.67%
    Ashkley Wagner: 7.69%
    Bebe Liang: 8.24%

    Bebe was a very popular skater on the national scene for many years, who never got any real traction intenationally.

    As for Alissa Czisny receiving less of a break at U.S. nationals than the other girls, I think that might be because Alissa is a beautiful skater whose mistakes are impossible to overlook. There is really no way for the nationals judges to hold her up when she falls so much, even if they wanted to.

    Caroline Zhang -- well, we really didn't need statistics to tell us the obvious. The judges at U.S. nationals have never given her a break since she started competing in seniors. The international judges seem far more forgiving of her flaws (lack of speed, improper edge-jump technique), than are their U.S. counterparts -- and simultaneously more impressed than U.S. judges are by her strengths (beautiful positions, flexibility, outstanding spins.)
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-23-2010 at 02:41 PM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ What is striking about these inflation rates is their consistency, Caroline Zhang being the perplexing outlier.

    Rachael Flatt: 7.96%
    Mirai Nagasu: 7.67%
    Ashkley Wagner: 7.69%
    Bebe Liang: 8.24%

    Bebe was a very popular skater on the national scene for many years, who never got any real traction intenationally.

    As for Alissa Czisny receiving less of a break at U.S. nationals than the other girls, I think that might be because Alissa is a beautiful skater whose mistakes are impossible to overlook. There is really no way for the nationals judges to hold her up when she falls so much, even if they wanted to.

    Caroline Zhang -- well, we really didn't need statistics to tell us the obvious. The judges at U.S. nationals have never given her a break since she started competing in seniors. The international judges seem far more forgiving of her flaws (lack of speed, improper edge-jump technique), than are their U.S. counterparts -- and simultaneously more impressed than U.S. judges are by her strengths (beautiful positions, flexibility, outstanding spins.)
    Caroline's spins aren't really outstanding anymore though, she like heaves her body into them and rotates slowly, her spins are pretty to look at because she is uber-flexible, but they carry nowhere near the speed of Czisny's or Nagasu's spins.

    As for Alissa, URs have really done her in. In years previous when the technical panel wasn't so strict, she could get away with under-rotating jumps more. These days, every time she falls it seems like the jump gets a UR call, and she normally gets an additional UR call or two on jumps she actually lands, and thus that is why she can't get a great LP score under CoP because when you average 2 falls and 3 URs a LP, you lose LOTS of points. Also, though her skating is beautiful she doesn't get super high PCS because she skates slowly and cautiously, and apparently speed is a big factor in PCS and the cautiousness obviously leads to less expression in her programs. But the good news is that under the new rules she will be penilized less for URs so she can maybe start getting better scores.

  4. #244
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Caroline's spins aren't really outstanding anymore though, she like heaves her body into them and rotates slowly, her spins are pretty to look at because she is uber-flexible, but they carry nowhere near the speed of Czisny's or Nagasu's spins.
    But the question is, why the difference of opinion on these matters between U.S. judges and International ones?

  5. #245
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    Or...maybe, just perhaps Zhang just doesn't perform as well on US soil???

  6. #246
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Well, we don't have to guess. We can look at her performances. They seem about the same to me. (?)

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But the question is, why the difference of opinion on these matters between U.S. judges and International ones?
    US judges apparently believe that Caroline will get crucified by Intl judges.

    Caroline's scores are perplexing - but let's face it - she skated poorly at Natls this season and much better at 4CC.

    But still, it seems like she is being marked tougher by US judges than the other US Ladies.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But the question is, why the difference of opinion on these matters between U.S. judges and International ones?
    Fair point. I mean but what about SC this year? 40 for PCS in the LP ! I would consider that as being crucified by the international judges, even if her 3 jump combo had counted she still would have scored only about 85 for the LP which is quite weak.

  9. #249
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    This past Grand Prix season was bad for Caroline. Her injuries and missed training really messed her up. Though funny stuff seems to happen at Nationals. In 2008 they totally overlooked an entire element. Last year, there was the funny judging. Caroline will have to outperform all the other girls in the Grand Prix, then blow the field away at Nationals to have any hope of a silver and a spot on the World Team.

  10. #250
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    caroline knows the us judges don't grant her the favoritism like the other skaters -so she holds up a bit. instead of saying the blank with it and just skate to see what the us judges would do.
    so she skates slow at nationals to give the us judges a reason to keep her intentionally down. to me ashley, was overmarked a bit--sasha a lot.
    emily and alissa some. but carolilne no favors why0-- could be tons of politically reasons.

  11. #251
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    as far as envelope -rachel should have did better but in regards to envelope she did what needed to do-
    miria would have medaled would have been in tier 1 a --
    they knew rules --so should have fought during whole season, not just a few.

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