Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

Joined
Mar 14, 2006
I don't understand why skaters shouldn't be compared. It is a competitive sport, after all. And the fact that it is a judged sport means scores, placements, and yes, funding levels, will be controversial and discussed.

Janetfan is right. Sasha has been a whipping girl on this board at least since 2006 (as long as I've been around) and the criticism of Rachael doesn't begin to approach the nastiness and character attacks that were directed at Sasha without the mods' intervention.

She may become a more artistic skater this season when she can focus exclusively on skating, but as of now she has not won many hearts. She's a strong jumper but most people want more and many -- including, apparently, the international judges -- think they've found it in Mirai. Rachael has a lot to work on. Maybe a rivalry with Mirai ... and, I hope, Ashley... is just what she needs to push her to higher levels of artistry and personality.
 

nylynnr

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
That was kind of my point. I note that in your explanation of the "loud and clear point" of Hersh's post, you did not mention the name "Rachael."

Why should I mention the name "Rachael" in every sentence of a short post, and why should you feel the need to chastise me? My point is, Phil did not denigrate Rachael, but questioned USFS criteria. The header indicates his issue is with the two (Mirai and Rachael) not being "on par." The bottom section of the post states both deserve top tier. I just didn't interpret this as a knock on Rachael.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Same with the Czisny bashing but that was only frustration being vented out over not having 3 US Oly spots (IMO)

I think you are right about that. Like Sara Lee cupcakes, "nobody doesn't like 'Lissa C." She's pretty, she's nice, you can't stay mad at her for long.

I think the criticism that Sasha faced last year was mainly scepticism about whether she was really serious about a comback. When she withdrew from both of her Grand Prix events, the naysayers got to say "I told you so."

But Sasha totally crushed all opposition and made us look like fools when she not only showed up at Nationals, but skated a thrilling, heart-warming SP to the thunderous applaus of an astonished and appreciative nation. :rock: She couldn't quite keep up the momentum in the LP, but the short was Sasha's, "In your face, suckers" moment. :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I think you are right about that. Like Sara Lee cupcakes, "nobody doesn't like 'Lissa C." She's pretty, she's nice, you can't stay mad at her for long.

I think the criticism that Sasha faced last year was mainly scepticism about whether she was really serious about a comback. When she withdrew from both of her Grand Prix events, the naysayers got to say "I told you so."

But Sasha totally crushed all opposition and made us look like fools when she not only showed up at Nationals, but skated a thrilling, heart-warming SP to the thunderous applaus of an astonished and appreciative nation. :rock: She couldn't quite keep up the momentum in the LP, but the short was Sasha's, "In your face, suckers" moment. :clap: :clap: :clap:

I don't know, I still think that Sasha didn't take her return seriously enough. Ie if she had started training earlier, I think she would have had a better shot at making it. And I don't think the issues people were having were really about Alissa, but more anger at the judging at US Nationals. And I don't recall anyone arguing sadness for Rachael last year, when Alissa had higher funding then her. Maybe the criteria should be a little bit laxier for top tier funding, and the rules should be that someone who medals at US nationals and places top 5 at worlds/Olympics should get the funding.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Why should I mention the name "Rachael" in every sentence of a short post, and why should you feel the need to chastise me?

I was "chastising" Hersh, not you. You wrote what Hersh ought to have, that the USFS criteria are faulty. You correctly did not mention Rachael to make this point, and Hersh need not have done so either.

What I was trying to say -- and I thought that your short synopsis of Hersh's main point supported my view -- was that an article raising questions about USFS policy should not feature a bold headline that makes it seem like he is putting down a particular skater.

My point is, Phil did not denigrate Rachael, but questioned USFS criteria. The header indicates his issue is with the two (Mirai and Rachael) not being "on par." The bottom section of the post states both deserve top tier. I just didn't interpret this as a knock on Rachael.

I guess so. After reading the Hersh article more closely, it does not seem so bad as I thought at first. I still dont like that big HUH? right after Rachael's name, though.

Why is everyone so touchy today?
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
:laugh: come on now. Cohen is NOT the "GS whipping girl" right now. Maybe she was back in 2004, but not in 2010. The target now (besides the stupid Kim/Asada fan wars) is... yes, you guessed it, Rachel Flatt. Even Hersh has jumped on that train. At least the Emily Hughes bashing has died down considerably. Same with the Czisny bashing but that was only frustration being vented out over not having 3 US Oly spots (IMO)

Nobody would dare pick on Nagasu even though she bombed possibly harder than Alyssa did in 2009. Somehow Mirai is off the hook, cut slack, given a break that Czisny didn't enjoy. Once again I think it was because OLY spots were on the line, but if someone has an alternate explanation, go for it. And I don't remember much criticism of Wagner in 2008...yet people defended Meissner so vigorously...sometimes I wonder about skatng forums.

I think part of the Alissa bashing last year was because the judges let her win US nationals and then sent her to Worlds where we all knew she would bomb. If the judging had been fair at nationals, Rachael would have won, Caroline would have been second, and Alissa would have been third and Caroline and Rachael would have gone to Worlds and likely gotten the US 3 spots for the Olympics. Even if Alissa had just been 2nd, the Worlds spot could have arguably been given to someone else.


Also, all this Mirai bombed worse than Czisny crap, are people still forgetting that Mirai BEAT RACHAEL at Worlds. Last year at Worlds Czisny had a meltdown of a SP and a mediocre LP while this year Mirai had a spectacular, 1st place SP and a mediocre LP. Plus, 7th is much better than 11th and her total score was a whopping 15 points higher than Czisny's score last year and would have put her in 5th place in last year's results. So I mean, considering Mirai was the higher placing finisher at Worlds, if people want to blame someone for not having 3 spots next year, shouldn't they blame Rachael because she finished lower than Mirai? I just don't understand this. Rachael had mistakes too, her mediocre SP and mediocre LP together proved to be more costly than Mirai's great SP and even more mediocre LP. This year, I don't think many people are that mad, because it's not an Olympic year and the spots aren't a huge deal and also Mirai and Rachael were only a few points off getting 3 spot placement and were pretty close point wise to even medaling.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
...if people want to blame someone for not having 3 spots next year, shouldn't they blame Rachael because she finished lower than Mirai? I just don't understand this... I don't think many people are that mad...

It is the "blaming" and "getting mad" part that I don't get. Give it your best shot. that's all you can do.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
But at the end of the day, we're still stuck with only two ladies' spots. Doesn't matter how close they might have been. That's the point. And I don't think any one skater in particular is to blame or should be blamed. The US ladies in general are just mediocre nowadays, a shadow of what they used to be. I await the day when they can regain that glory.

But Zhang 2nd at 2009 Nats?? I couldn't have read that right...
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
But at the end of the day, we're still stuck with only two ladies' spots. Doesn't matter how close they might have been. That's the point. And I don't think any one skater in particular is to blame or should be blamed. The US ladies in general are just mediocre nowadays, a shadow of what they used to be. I await the day when they can regain that glory.

But Zhang 2nd at 2009 Nats?? I couldn't have read that right...

Short memory RD....

Caroline beat Rachael at 4CC and WTT last season. She competed against Rachael twice in front of Intl judges and beat her both times.

Sorry if this post is taken as "Rachael bashing" and I am just stating the facts.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
It is the "blaming" and "getting mad" part that I don't get. Give it your best shot. that's all you can do.

Well I was pretty angry last year but it wasn't about blaming Alissa. I was more mad because I felt like Alissa was held up at Nationals over Flatt and Zhang, and I didn't get the point behind that. If Alissa had skated well at Nationals, I would have had no problem with Alissa being on the world team "come what may". But I did have a big problem with the USFSA holding up a skater who was notoriously inconsistent, in order to send her to the Olympic qualifier.

However it was never about Alissa, because I'm sure she tried her best. I was just frustrated because I felt Zhang and Flatt showed at Nationals that year that they were our best possible team for worlds, and it was frustrating to realize we weren't sending our best possible team..

This year Flatt and Nagasu were clearly our two best, and so the results are essentially the results. Its ridiculous to "blame the athletes who do their best." I think people were just more angry about what went down at Nationals which was never Alissa's fault.

Short memory RD....

Caroline beat Rachael at 4CC and WTT last season. She competed against Rachael twice in front of Intl judges and beat her both times.

Sorry if this post is taken as "Rachael bashing" and I am just stating the facts.

That was after Nationals though. Going into Nationals, Rachael did better on the GP circuit than Caroline did, and in their last international meet Junior Worlds, Flatt beat her. Carolina got a lot of downgrades in the GP circuit that season, I think if she had done better on the GP that year that the team would have been Flatt/Zhang.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
But at the end of the day, we're still stuck with only two ladies' spots. Doesn't matter how close they might have been. That's the point. And I don't think any one skater in particular is to blame or should be blamed. The US ladies in general are just mediocre nowadays, a shadow of what they used to be. I await the day when they can regain that glory.

But Zhang 2nd at 2009 Nats?? I couldn't have read that right...

She had 2 clean programs and did 7 triples in the FS compared to Czisny's 3. Anyways I'm not that upset about Worlds this year because I thought both Flatt and Nagasu skated decently. The funny thing is that Flatt and Nagasu's "bad" LPs at Worlds this year got almost identical scores to Czisny's "good" LP at Worlds last year, which should put things into perspective. Czisny has never broken 110 for a LP in her entire career, and Flatt and Nagasu came close to breaking it with very disappointing skates (for them) at Worlds this year, which I think is promising as it suggests the future of US skating is on the rise.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
A few years ago, "disappointing" skates from the top US ladies didn't keep them off the podium at Worlds or Olys. Yet, their best effort at Vancouver Olys couldn't even get them ON the podium. Says it all. But I suppose it's a "half-full, half-empty" situation.

Most comments about Czisny last year were not personal, so I assumed most were directing their frustration at the judging.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
She had 2 clean programs and did 7 triples in the FS compared to Czisny's 3. Anyways I'm not that upset about Worlds this year because I thought both Flatt and Nagasu skated decently. The funny thing is that Flatt and Nagasu's "bad" LPs at Worlds this year got almost identical scores to Czisny's "good" LP at Worlds last year, which should put things into perspective. Czisny has never broken 110 for a LP in her entire career, and Flatt and Nagasu came close to breaking it with very disappointing skates (for them) at Worlds this year, which I think is promising as it suggests the future of US skating is on the rise.


I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't scoring at 2010 worlds inflated compared to last year?

Leaving the numbers aside, Alissa's flawed skating was good enough for 11th at worlds. Rachael's flawed skating was good enough for 9th, not much better. I don't know what Alissa's best skating would be good enough for at worlds, since she has never done it. But I do know that Rachael's best skating was good enough for 7th at the Olympics. I don't know if that gives me all that much hope for the future of the U.S. skating. But we'll see.

In terms of the funding, I'm not fussed at all. The U.S. nationals judges decided that Rachael was our best lady skater and U.S. figure skating must act accordingly. The rules don't think that a 4th place Olympic finisher/7th place world finisher deserves equal or more funding than the national champion. I don't think those rules are ridiculous. Obviously, people making that argument dislike Rachael's skating but don't want to come out and say it.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't scoring at 2010 worlds inflated compared to last year?

Leaving the numbers aside, Alissa's flawed skating was good enough for 11th at worlds. Rachael's flawed skating was good enough for 9th, not much better. I don't know what Alissa's best skating would be good enough for at worlds, since she has never done it. But I do know that Rachael's best skating was good enough for 7th at the Olympics. I don't know if that gives me all that much hope for the future of the U.S. skating. But we'll see.

In terms of the funding, I'm not fussed at all. The U.S. nationals judges decided that Rachael was our best lady skater and U.S. figure skating must act accordingly. The rules don't think that a 4th place Olympic finisher/7th place world finisher deserves equal or more funding than the national champion. I don't think those rules are ridiculous. Obviously, people making that argument dislike Rachael's skating but don't want to come out and say it.

This Olympics was an extremely deep field though. If you look at who beat Rachael there, you have: 3 World Champions (Kim, Asada, Ando), 1 European Champion (Lepisto), a 6 time Canadian champ and world medalist who also was given generous scores due to hometown bonus (Rochette), and a girl who won US nationals at age 14 (Mirai). Also, some people feel Rachael's URs were unfair and without them she would have placed 5th.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
world medalist who also was given generous scores due to hometown bonus (Rochette)

Even without the hometown bonus, Flatt has never beaten Rochette, ever, in Canada or otherwise. Saying Rochette is a World medalist is fine, the underlined part of your sentence is unnecessary if not somewhat disrespectful considering she lost her mother a few days before and most people wouldn't even be able to compete under those circumstances. :disapp:
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
This Olympics was an extremely deep field though. If you look at who beat Rachael there, you have: 3 World Champions (Kim, Asada, Ando), 1 European Champion (Lepisto), a 6 time Canadian champ and world medalist who also was given generous scores due to hometown bonus (Rochette), and a girl who won US nationals at age 14 (Mirai). Also, some people feel Rachael's URs were unfair and without them she would have placed 5th.

I guess if Kim, Ando and Rochette retire, Flatt could have a shot at the podium.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Not sure where Ando stands but do we know whether Rochette or Kim
are retiring?
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Even without the hometown bonus, Flatt has never beaten Rochette, ever, in Canada or otherwise.

Indeed. Joannie's PCS deserve to be far and above Flatts. Her chreo, interpretation of the music are much more mature and sophisticated, her skating skills are among the best out there right now. Joannie has a clean lutz and good technique on all her jumps, something that cannot be said for Flatt even if her jumps were rotated.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Until 2010, has any US champ (lady) did this bad at the Olympic Games?

If not, why would they have rules to reward off-podium finishers at the big intl events? The history so far has told the officials that if a US champion is going to be on the podium at the Oly or WC, so there's no point in awarding non-champ who doesnt' get on the podium.

This is the reflection of how weak the U.S. ladies are right now. The rules made PERFECT SENSE until now.

So I think it's unfair to diss Rachel b/c she just did what she did and got the funding. And I'm not sure if I'd call it unfair to Mirai. She had a shot at getting the same level of funding that Rachel gets at WC. All she had to do was beat Lepisto, but that didn't happen.
 
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Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
What kind of money are we talking here about? I mean, what is the difference between Envelope A tier one and two moneywise?
 
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