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Thread: Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

  1. #136
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I agree with Toni that the decline of interest in figure skating cannot be laid at the door of any one factor. I think it is just a reflection of changing tastes in the national entertainment palate. (Hey, that's a sentence where both "palate" and "palette" make equal sense. )

    But this means that the skating powers-that-be need to be more imaginative in reaching out to their potential fans and supporters, rather than adopting the paternalistic attitude, "we, with our superior knowledge, know what's good for you."

    Joe's idea is to let the spectators peek behind the steel curtain of figure skating judging in real time. (Please let's leave aside the argument that a fan could go home after the event and study the rule book, then look up the protocols on the Internet the next day.

  2. #137
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post

    The ISU and the USFS are the caretakers of figure skating and that requires money, The drop in revenues has shown that the fans have less interest in figure skating. Apparently, the CoP will continue, so suggestions to can it just wont work. What needs to be done is to appease what's left of the fanbase of figure skating. Hence my suggestions to have a happy in house audience and home viewers. The audience at the Arena are good for spreading the word. The home viewers bring up the TV ratings.

    What seems to be happening is the branch of the ISU dealing with Regulations, have again amended some of the established directives which may make some of the audience more confused. These changes may indeed improve the overall set up but they are still clear as mud to the average fanbase. Something has to be done for the Fans to understand the CoP or they will definitely lose interest. A visible Consensus of what the judges score for each skater is my humble suggestion. I welcome other suggestions.

    However, finding another Kwan may take 20 years, and I am not totallly convinced that will do it. New fans growing up have different tastes as can be seen from our present fanbase who know little about skating before 1980.

    Yes, the CoP wasn't the only thing that killed FS, but it did play a big role in killing it, imo. Much too confusing for the average skating fan!!
    The scandal just proved that those pretty little girls are part of a network of a fixed sport, so why watch it?
    Kwan gave the sport a bit of class which it lost on her retirement. Don't expect another Kwan for at least 20 years. I'm not at all sure that was a reason for the decline.

    The ISU has to go where the money is to manage its regulatory operations. If there was no ISU, there would soon be another, or no international competitions.
    I agree with your suggestion and think it would be a very welcome addition to skating broadcasts.

    As to the next Kwan - hmmm, that is tougher.......
    I would suggest USA has a Lady skater emerging who delighted fans in the arena and TV with her skating at Natls.

    The CoP decided it was not good enough and instead chose a somewhat mechanical skater who at times appears to be going through the motions. But they are the proper CoP motions. Problem is that many casual fans don't like it and miss the grace of Michelle (and Sasha too).

    Who is to say Kwan would win today? She is not as athletic as Yuna or even Mirai and part of her skating that so engaged the audiences had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE cop.

    Michelle was so special to so many of us because she skated with her heart. The fans, even the casual one's not only identified with her but simply loved this girl.

    But I just watched her last competion from '05 Worlds and she looked a little out of it. It appeared as if skating for points did not agree with her - in the same way that it does not go over well with so many former fans.
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-15-2010 at 08:21 AM.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Who is to say Kwan would win today? She is not as athletic as Yuna or even Mirai and part of her skating that so engaged the audiences had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE cop.

    Michelle was so special to so many of us because she skated with her heart...
    I think some of this can be addressed even with the structure of the CoP. It's the point you brought up before, that if the judges actually scored the program components the way they are written there would be plenty of opportunity to reward thrilling performances and beautiful interpretive skating.

    But, yeah, if the music calls for holding your change-edge spiral the width of the rink, but you get an extra CoP "level" for breaking off in the middle and wrestling your foot over your head...

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but my fuzzy old memory seems to remember Michelle skating at US Natls in '03, '04 and '05. I seem to recall that Michelle also skated at Worlds in '03, '04 and '05.
    no kidding, really? huh, coulda sworn she skated in teh 80s. *rolleyes*

    I said she pulled back. she might have skated in nationals, but she wasn't as much of an international competitor later in her career skipping the Grand Prix (which did suffer in ratings in teh US, whcih I think is the reason ABC Sports/NBC didn't renew their contract.)

    and Sasha was not the media darling of 2006 WOG until Michelle pulled out. NBC put all their eggs in the Kween's basket and it bit them in the butt... Sasha was still #2 in their eyes, nevermind she was the US Champion leading up to it and she was - at the time - uninjured. Sasha was forever in Michelle's shadow, which was horribly unfair.

  5. #140
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    no kidding, really? huh, coulda sworn she skated in teh 80s. *rolleyes*

    I said she pulled back. she might have skated in nationals, but she wasn't as much of an international competitor later in her career skipping the Grand Prix (which did suffer in ratings in teh US, whcih I think is the reason ABC Sports/NBC didn't renew their contract.)

    and Sasha was not the media darling of 2006 WOG until Michelle pulled out. NBC put all their eggs in the Kween's basket and it bit them in the butt... Sasha was still #2 in their eyes, nevermind she was the US Champion leading up to it and she was - at the time - uninjured. Sasha was forever in Michelle's shadow, which was horribly unfair.
    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had not made those early mistakes and won the OGM?

    My gosh, I don't know if the Kween's fans could have gone on living

    First Tara, then Sarah - most likely the indignity of Sasha winning would have been a burden too great for most of them to bear

  6. #141
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    At Nationals, I was hoping Sasha would make the Olympic team. Wouldn't that have been something?
    Wouldn't it have been even more something if she won in Vancouver?

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    At Nationals, I was hoping Sasha would make the Olympic team. Wouldn't that have been something?
    Wouldn't it have been even more something if she won in Vancouver?
    Yep - if only we had four spots then Sasha would have been a three-time Olympian.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had not made those early mistakes and won the OGM?

    My gosh, I don't know if the Kween's fans could have gone on living

    First Tara, then Sarah - most likely the indignity of Sasha winning would have been a burden too great for most of them to bear
    If I may politely say so, pooh! Michelle is probably my favorite skater ever, but I would have been thrilled if Sasha had won the OGM in 2006. (Maybe I'm a freak of nature among Kween fans, but I bet not.) I think Sasha is one of the most memorable skaters to come from the U.S.--despite some small flaws, she has great beauty and musicality and an individual style. But her determination to finish well after the falls in her long program may have been even more admirable than a perfect skate would have been, and an Olympic silver is not to be sneezed at. Of course, like PolymerBob, I would have loved to see her compete at this year's Olympics. But what she did in the two Games prior to this one was lovely enough. Remember that great short program in 2002?

    Janetfan, I like what you said earlier about Michelle's style and the CoP. Though I'm sure she would have adapted to CoP had she continued, or had it been instituted during her peak years, a lot of what made her special was not elements that can be measured with that kind of precision. She skated, as you say, with her heart. It makes me wonder who else is being forced into the cookie-cutter mold of CoP skating, who would otherwise let loose with skating magic. Sigh...I understand the benefits of the Code of Points, but I don't have to love it.
    Last edited by Olympia; 05-15-2010 at 04:16 PM.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    If I may politely say so, pooh! Michelle is probably my favorite skater ever, but I would have been thrilled if Sasha had won the OGM in 2006. (Maybe I'm a freak of nature among Kween fans, but I bet not.) I think Sasha is one of the most memorable skaters to come from the U.S.--despite some small flaws, she has great beauty and musicality and an individual style. But her determination to finish well after the falls in her long program may have been even more admirable than a perfect skate would have been, and an Olympic silver is not to be sneezed at. Of course, like PolymerBob, I would have loved to see her compete at this year's Olympics. But what she did in the two Games prior to this one was lovely enough. Remember that great short program in 2002?
    Sure I remember - and also the great SP from '06.
    It's funny for me because I am a big fan of both girls. But it doesn't take too much praise for Sasha here to bring out the claws of a Kwan fan.

    If I even mention I love Sasha's Swan Lake costume a post will follow quickly enough with an equally nice Michelle dress.
    That doesn't mean you are like that - and sorry to make you go "pooh."
    You even show displeasure in a classy manner and believe it or not I think once a week or so - "why can't I be half as nice as Olympia?"

    ETA: Here is Sasha's Swan Lake dress - there is even a site dedicated to it!

    http://swanlake.kyoudai.net/
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-15-2010 at 04:35 PM.

  10. #145
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    It's a Michelle thread now for easy posting. No one has anything new to say about her. Whether or not she caused the drop in Figure Skating is moot. She left the stars when Tara, won back in 98, and had her father coached her in 2006 Remember?

    And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were, except they are waiting for a new Michelle. It's like Waiting for Godot. And with Nagasu not on par with Flatt, it has gone with the wind. Fantastick, the whole of American figure skating is going to pots and we are remembering Kwan.

    So forget any ideas about the future of American figure skating or some sort of rivalry between Mirai and Rachael, and concentrate on the memory on one whose expectations were never met.

  11. #146
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    It's a Michelle thread now for easy posting. No one has anything new to say about her. Whether or not she caused the drop in Figure Skating is moot. She left the stars when Tara, won back in 98, and had her father coached her in 2006 Remember?

    And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were, except they are waiting for a new Michelle. It's like Waiting for Godot. And with Nagasu not on par with Flatt, it has gone with the wind. Fantastick, the whole of American figure skating is going to pots and we are remembering Kwan.

    So forget any ideas about the future of American figure skating or some sort of rivalry between Mirai and Rachael, and concentrate on the memory on one whose expectations were never met.
    Maybe Michelle and Sasha because most here never saw Janet skate. Or Linda, Roz and Debi through their competitive years.

    I am not living or dying for international medals and am happy enough watching our current skaters. Alissa shows so much of what I enjoy from a skater and so does Mirai.

    Caroline has qualities I like and so do some of the new crop. Skating did not begin for me with Michelle and it won't end with her either. But she is not only hard to forget - she deserves to be remembered. Sasha too.
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-15-2010 at 04:52 PM.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan
    If I even mention I love Sasha's Swan Lake costume a post will follow quickly enough with an equally nice Michelle dress.
    I can create my own Michelle Kwan dress. For $8.97 you can, too!

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000K3PX/...twaredigger-20

    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had not made those early mistakes and won the OGM?

    My gosh, I don't know if the Kween's fans could have gone on living

    First Tara, then Sarah - most likely the indignity of Sasha winning would have been a burden too great for most of them to bear.
    So true! Yet another wet-behind-the ears whippersnapper jumping up and stealing Michelle’s rightful medal?

    The only thing worse would have been if Irina had won in 2006, getting ahead of Michelle on the all-time great list!

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if Sasha had not made those early mistakes and won the OGM?

    My gosh, I don't know if the Kween's fans could have gone on living
    Yeah, we'd likely have needed the local police force
    Last edited by R.D.; 05-15-2010 at 06:38 PM.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were,...
    The funny thing to me is that American fans were never much into international competitions anyway, even when the popularity of skating was at its height. The big television draws (setting aside the Olympics once every four years) were Skate America and U.S. Nationals. Cheesefests and pro competitions were popular, too, for a time.

    There never was much interest among American fans in who won Trophee Lalique, the Grand Prix Final, or even Worlds.

    Michelle won nine U.S. championships, many of them with highlight reel performances. I do not expect ever again to see anything to match that run.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Michelle won nine U.S. championships, many of them with highlight reel performances. I do not expect ever again to see anything to match that run.
    Mirabel Vinson Owen probably felt the same way after she won her 9th US Ladies title. How many US Pairs titles did she also win?

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