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Thread: Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

  1. #151
    Down With It
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    Well, to be fair, the GP is like the "regular season". And typically, regular season games will never be the draw that playoff or championship games are. Just because there's more at stake. Like the Olympics. I guess US Nationals would be a very(, very) distant second as far as popularity goes. Even when NBC took back the GP last season, I don't think any of those events they aired cracked even 1% of households. US Nationals this year I think got a 3.4 and the night of the OLY ladies FS drew a 13 or something like that.

  2. #152
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    Ooh, Janetfan, I just looked at that link to Sasha's Swan Lake dress. It's gorgeous without giving me any thought of anyone else's dress.

    I can't remember reading how many pairs titles Maribel Vinson Owen won. She was the root and tree of American skating for a good long time! Even after she stopped skating, she was a great coach. It's good for you to remind us that skating has a long history, and certainly your namesake Janet Lynn is someone to invoke. I say grace for YouTube at least three times a week, because not only are those past skaters available to me, they can be viewed by anyone who wonders what the fuss is all about.

    Interestingly, I learned about the Owens from a book by Toller Cranston. He praised two skaters in that book, Maribel's younger daughter Laurence, and Janet Lynn. I went on a research mission and found out about the family. A beautiful story of skating achievement, but with the most tragic end you can imagine. This is not news to Janetfan, but to those of you who are new to the skating world, in 1961, Laurence Owen was the U.S. Ladies' Singles champion, and her older sister Maribel was the pairs champion. Their mother, the nine-times-champion Maribel V. Owen was their coach. All three were on the plane that went down on its way to the World Championships. No one survived the crash.

  3. #153
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    Here is wonderful Laurie right after winning her first US ladies Championship.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7704/index.htm

    Mirabel was Frank Carroll's coach - and I always felt the tradition of US Skating best exemplified by Mirabel passed through Frank to Michelle.
    And now, hopefully Mirai.

    ETA: Mirabel was also the coach of Natl, World and Olympic Champion, Dr. Tenley Albright.
    And yes, it is OK to call Tenley Doctor
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-15-2010 at 07:27 PM.

  4. #154
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Michelle won nine U.S. championships, many of them with highlight reel performances. I do not expect ever again to see anything to match that run.
    Mirabel Vinson Owen probably felt the same way after she won her 9th US Ladies title.
    And Mrs. Owen was right.

    I think I will be proved right, too. But who knows -- I might still be around for the next 77 years and see the next miracle run after all.

    How many pairs titles did she win
    Six (I looked it up No need to thank me, I live to serve. )

    In looking up this record I also found out that the record for U.S. pairs titles is 9, by Teresa Weld and Nathan Niles, 1918 and 1920 to 1927). Another record that I do not expect to live long enough to see matched.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-15-2010 at 07:14 PM.

  5. #155
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    ^ You beat me to it by deleting that post!

    But Beatrix Loughram would have been the first U.S. lady to win an Olympic gold medal (1924) if it hadn't been for Herma Szabo. (Szabo is one of only four ladies in history to win five or more world championships. An amaxing feat! )

    And this same Beatrix Lougheam would have been the first U.S, lady to win an Olympic gold medal in pairs (with partner Sherwin Badger, in 1932), if it hadn't been for Brunet and Brunet.

    By the way, the 1932 battle between Sonia Henie and Celcilia College, in which Maribel Vinson took the bronze, remains one of the outstanding competitions of all time, with both skaters delivering amazing performances.

    (But you knew all that. )

  6. #156
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    I have a book somewhere (being a book packrat and especially a skating book packrat) that's nothing but reproductions of news articles about skating. I know I read in it about the 1932 Olympics but have forgotten the details. Now you've inspired me to go back and read about it again, Math. That's something I guess we won't find on YouTube...alas. At least, not more than snippets of it. Maybe they showed thirty seconds of it in a movie newsreel.

    Imagine that there are that many ladies who have won five or more world championships! Let's see: Beatrice Loughram of course, Henie, Kwan...who else? Witt didn't, I'm fairly sure, because Sumners and Debbi Thomas each won one during Witt's tenure.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ You beat me to it by deleting that post!

    But Beatrix Loughram would have been the first U.S. lady to win an Olympic gold medal (1924) if it hadn't been for Herma Szabo. (Szabo is one of only four ladies in history to win five or more world championships. An amaxing feat!

    And this same Beatrix Lougheam would have been the first U.S, lady to win an Olympic gold medal in pairs (with partner Sherwin Badger, in 1932), if it hadn't been for Brunet and Brunet.

    By the way, the 1932 battle between Sonia Henie and Celcilia College, in which Maribel Vinson took the bronze, remains one of the outstanding competitions of all time, with both skaters delivering amazing performances.

    (But you knew all that. )
    I know sometimes - when I can still remember

    Wanted to add that Mirabel was a three time Olympian placing 4th in '28, 3rd in '32 and 5th in '36.
    She also placed 5th in Pairs at the Olympics.

    In 1961 her two daughters won US Championships - Laurance in Singles and Mirabel in Pairs.

    Laurance, US Champion at 16 was the heir to Tenley and Carol Heiss.
    Many think she would have been a heavy favorite for Gold at the '64 Olympics.

    So what does this have to do with winning back fans
    I have no idea but US Ladies certainly have a wonderful tradition.

    And despite how many fans love to dump on Hersh - look at this thread he inspired.....

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Imagine that there are that many ladies who have won five or more world championships!
    I'm pretty sure it's Szabo, Henie, Carol Heiss and Michelle.

    And despite how many fans love to dump on Hersh - look at this thread he inspired...
    Yeah, let's get back to that scoundrel.

    Here is where Hersh went wrong. Given the content of his story, the headline is misleading.

    If the headline says, "Man bites dog," then you expect the story to be about a man who bit a dog. Hersh's headline made it seem like the article was going to be about Mirai being better than Rachael. But instead it was about the USFSA's
    criteria for funding envelopes, which has nothing to do with either Rachael or Mirai.

    Not only that, but the majority of the story is not about that either. It is about how hard it is to skate competitively and go to school at the same time. If I were going to write an article about that, my headline would be, "It's hard to go to school and skate competitively at the same time." (I guess that's why I am not a journalist. )

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's Szabo, Henie, Carol Heiss and Michelle.



    Yeah, let's get back to that scoundrel.

    Here is where Hersh went wrong. Given the content of his story, the headline is misleading.

    If the headline says, "Man bites dog," then you expect the story to be about a man who bit a dog. Hersh's headline made it seem like the article was going to be about Mirai being better than Rachael. But instead it was about the USFSA's
    criteria for funding envelopes, which has nothing to do with either Rachael or Mirai.

    Not only that, but the majority of the story is not about that either. It is about how hard it is to skate competitively and go to school at the same time. If I were going to write an article about that, my headline would be, "It's hard to go to school and skate competitively at the same time." (I guess that's why I am not a journalist. )
    You gotta have the sizzle baby.
    Carol won 5 WC's " I just posted on a different thread she won 4.
    Did she win 5 straight from 1956 to 1960? What a skater!

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    And no one has any idea on how to get the fans back into the Arena or get the ratings of the international competitions back up to where they were, except they are waiting for a new Michelle. It's like Waiting for Godot. And with Nagasu not on par with Flatt, it has gone with the wind. Fantastick, the whole of American figure skating is going to pots and we are remembering Kwan.
    There are 2 things that can save American skating ............. another Michelle ...........

    .................... or another Tonya !!!!

  11. #161
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    Gaak, it was Heiss! For some reason I held back when trying to name the five-time champs, though I thought I remembered that she was one of them. She stayed through more than one Olympic cycle, which was unusual in that era, because the ladies tended to progress through as teenagers and then leave whether they won or didn't win in "their" Olympics. So she had '56 through '60 rather than '57 through '60 to get the job done. I was trying to name the champs from memory without looking her up, not through laziness but just to see if I could. Gaak! My apologies to Carol Heiss, wherever she is tonight.

  12. #162
    Minusaramadad from Arctaroon John King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Here is wonderful Laurie right after winning her first US ladies Championship.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...7704/index.htm

    Mirabel was Frank Carroll's coach - and I always felt the tradition of US Skating best exemplified by Mirabel passed through Frank to Michelle.
    And now, hopefully Mirai.

    ETA: Mirabel was also the coach of Natl, World and Olympic Champion, Dr. Tenley Albright.
    And yes, it is OK to call Tenley Doctor
    Actually she is a gynecologist, but this is her lunch hour.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    There are 2 things that can save American skating ............. another Michelle ...........

    .................... or another Tonya !!!!
    That may be a fact but what do you suggest? Buy a Kwan or Buy a Tonya? Neither are replaceable. Not now; not in the future.
    Let's get back to reading the annals of figure skating.

  14. #164
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Maybe Michelle and Sasha because most here never saw Janet skate. Or Linda, Roz and Debi through their competitive years.

    I am not living or dying for international medals and am happy enough watching our current skaters. Alissa shows so much of what I enjoy from a skater and so does Mirai.

    Caroline has qualities I like and so do some of the new crop. Skating did not begin for me with Michelle and it won't end with her either. But she is not only hard to forget - she deserves to be remembered. Sasha too.
    Good Post. Eras in skating are just for those who saw them. Ten years from now, the present Kwaniacs will hardly matter with their views. Otherwise go to Wikipedia or some other reference book and drop names.

    Caroline has talent but absolutely no direction. Ave Maria is old hat. Barbara Ann Scott toured with that number after skating resumed when the war ended. But you all knew that, didn't you.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Good Post. Eras in skating are just for those who saw them. Ten years from now, the present Kwaniacs will hardly matter with their views. Otherwise go to Wikipedia or some other reference book and drop names.

    Caroline has talent but absolutely no direction. Ave Maria is old hat. Barbara Ann Scott toured with that number after skating resumed when the war ended. But you all knew that, didn't you.
    I wish I knew more about Barbara Ann Scott - and many of the greats from the past. Many are just as you stated - names from the record books and the dreaded Wikipedia

    Here is an interesting clip from the Squaw Valley games showing the top Pairs teams and some rare footage of the Vinson Owen family including Mirabel working with Laurie on the ice.

    The Pairs skating looks so different but I like that the emphasis is on skating together and not so much on big tricks.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTgEQCq_JY4
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-16-2010 at 07:18 AM.

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