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Thread: Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

  1. #196
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan
    It is the author's opinion - and also a former skater named Michelle Kwan - who apparently agreed that it was on awfully late.
    I think gkelly was talking about the ladies long program, which was scheduled for 4:00-8:00 in Spokane. I think the last two hours were televised live, 9:00-11:00 on the east coast.

    The article was about the short program, which was indeed on too late for most east coast viewers., ending at 2:00 AM. Thank goodness for all the Golden Skate play-by-playuers. I could get up the next morning and check out the whole competition.

    If you want to believe that if Mirai's opening 3x2 combo had been as sloppy as Sasha's - and still would have received the same score that is your prerogative.
    How's this for spot-on judging? The judges gave Mirai's opening 3Lz+2T combo exactly 0.43 points more than Sasha's. Mirai won the short program over Sasha by exactly 0.43 points.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-17-2010 at 03:52 PM.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think gkelly was talking about the ladies long program, which was scheduled for 4:00-8:00 in Spokane. I think the last two hours were televised live, 9:00-11:00 on the east coast.



    How's this for spot-on judging? The judges gave Mirai's opening 3Lz+2T combo exactly 0.43 points more than Sasha's. Mirai won the short program over Sasha by exactly 0.43 points.

    The article was about the short program, which was indeed on too late for most east coast viewers., ending at 2:00 AM. Thank goodness for all the Golden Skate play-by-playuers. I could get up the next morning and check out the whole competition.
    I believe most honest folks scoring the opening 3lz+2T that we saw from Sasha and Mirai at the Natls SP would not have given Mirai only a .43 edge. Sasha had a problem on both jumps but our tech panel must have had pixie dust in their eyes when Sasha jumped. And it is no secret that NBC was spotted giving away free pixie dust that evening.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    The article was about the short program, which was indeed on too late for most east coast viewers., ending at 2:00 AM.
    Now THAT was an event worth staying up late for. And I had that adrenaline really pumping for the first time in years...

  4. #199
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    One of the judges gave Mirai a -2 on her combo. That judge must have thought Mirai went off the wrong edge.

    Anyway, if the judgees gave Sasha a break in the short program they made up for it in the long. Sasha received a total of minus 9.15 GOE total on her jump elements.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    One of the judges gave Mirai a -2 on her combo. That judge must have thought Mirai went off the wrong edge.

    Anyway, if the judgees gave Sasha a break in the short program they made up for it in the long. Sasha received a total of minus 9.15 GOE total on her jump elements.
    The LP was a different story. NBC used up all of their pixie dust the night of the SP. They had none left for the LP - but did get the ratings up 43% over the previous year.
    Again - we see the number 43 A coincidence? I don't belive in coincidences

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I believe most honest folks scoring the opening 3lz+2T that we saw from Sasha and Mirai at the Natls SP would not have given Mirai only a .43 edge. Sasha had a problem on both jumps but our tech panel must have had pixie dust in their eyes when Sasha jumped. And it is no secret that NBC was spotted giving away free pixie dust that evening.
    Nagasu deserved to be much farther ahead than the other skaters, IMO. At least 4 points. As much as I liked Flatt, she was probably scored a TAD bit high. I'd have had (with Nationals inflation scoring) Nagasu 71, Flatt 66, Cohen 64, Wagner 59. Something like that, anyway.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Nagasu deserved to be much farther ahead than the other skaters, IMO. At least 4 points. As much as I liked Flatt, she was probably scored a TAD bit high. I'd have had (with Nationals inflation scoring) Nagasu 71, Flatt 66, Cohen 64, Wagner 59. Something like that, anyway.
    You agreed with me last week and now it is my turn to agree with you

    but switch Sasha and Rachael
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-17-2010 at 04:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Anyway, if the judgees gave Sasha a break in the short program they made up for it in the long. Sasha received a total of minus 9.15 GOE total on her jump elements.
    Still, that mess of a skate should not have gotten over 100 points. Then again, I still think Nagasu should have eeked out that victory. She skated with a fire and intensity that even Flatt was lacking (and I thought the latter did very well). DG jumps aside that is. (So glad they changed that "rule")

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    You agreed with me last week and now it is my turn to agree with you

    but switch Sasha and Rachael
    Hey! You snuck in that last part didn't ya I saw it when you just had the top line...

    No. Rachel was on in that short. Did a 3-3 as well.

    Cohen botched a 3-2 attempt. Even her solo jump was a bit iffy IIRC (?). I stick by my placements and scores above.
    Last edited by R.D.; 05-17-2010 at 04:42 PM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Hey! You snuck in that last part didn't ya I saw it when you just had the top line...

    No. Rachel was on in that short. Did a 3-3 as well.

    Cohen botched a 3-2 attempt. Even her solo jump was a bit iffy IIRC (?). I stick by my placements and scores above.
    Geez, I can't get anything past you RD.

    OK, I will agree with you - if you will agree Rachael had a problem on her 3x3 in her LP. Remember the weak air position, scratchy landing and the way she did a complete 360 spin out of it?
    She probably got big GOE for it too even though it looked to be a UR with a stepout.

  11. #206
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    This thread is so entertaining. I am constantly giggling reading it.

    To begin with... We had no golden star entered in the Olys and NBC had to do something about keeping its ratings up. So... we got Ms Vonn as America's sweetheart and Rhodes as her Prince Charming.

    One should know that maligning Browning just doesn't go for me. Ok, he retries with no OGM but he had multiples Worlds' Golds. Not unlike Ms Kwan who never won an Oly but had multiple Worlds' Golds.

    As I recall both SP and LP were arranged by NBC so as to keep the country interested in Figure Skating. If it started at 4pm on the West Coast, it would hit the East Coast by 7pm and we did get Tugba. Since she was in an early grouping, NBC went on to more Alpine Skiing, Curling, and the Nordic which two American won gold and silver till the Final Group of skaters hit the warm up at 11pm, Groups inbetween Tugba and the Last Group were zapped. Remember we wanted to see Laura Lepisto. We didn't, and she got a bronze medal. It was very late night TV if one watched the Awards Ceremony. I supposed NBC was good for the last group, but it aint like it used to be.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    She probably got big GOE for it too even though it looked to be a UR with a stepout.
    Rachael got negative GOEs from six judges, and three 0s.

    Where Rachael got generous scores at Nationals was in the GOEs for the non-jump elements.

    In the SP, Sasha cleaned up on GOEs on her spins, step sequence and spiral. On her spiral sequence she got six +3's and three +2's. On her combination spin she got three +3's, five +2's and one +1.

    But Mirai was right up there, too. She got six +3's on her layback, four more on her combination spin, and one more on her spiral.

    Well, it is Nationals.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-18-2010 at 07:42 AM.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Rachael got negative GOEs from six judges, and three 0s.

    Where Rachael got generous scores at Nationals was in the GOEs for the non-jump elements.

    In the SP, Sasha cleaned up on GOEs on her spins, step sequence and spiral. On her spiral sequence she got six +3's and three +2's. On her combination spin she got three +3's, five +2's and one +1.

    But Mirai was right up there, too. She got six +3's on her layback, four more on her combination spin, and one more on her spiral.

    Well, it is Nationals.
    Thanks for the info on Rachael's jump.

    As to the generous goe on the non-jump elements I agree that Sasha and Mirai deserved them.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Thanks for the info on Rachael's jump.

    As to the generous goe on the non-jump elements I agree that Sasha and Mirai deserved them.
    On the average, there seems to be about a 6% "grade inflation" across the board, comparing national championships to international results. The judges have the most leeway in two categories, GOEs for non-jump elements and program components. It is interersting to break down the numbers for different skaters.

    Here are Mirai and Rachael, comparing the short programs at U.S. Nationals with the Olympics (all four programs were excellent and represent pretty close to the skaters' best.)

    Total SP scores:

    Mirai: Olympics 63.76, Nationals 70.06, inflation factor 9.8%.
    Rachael: Olympics 64.64, Nationals 69.35, inflation factor 7.3%.

    Program components:

    Mirai: Olympics 26.76, Nationals 29.86, inflation factor 11.6%.
    Rachael: Olympics 29.96, Nationals 27.84, inflation factor 7.6%.

    So overall, Mirai profited somewhat more from Nationals inflation than Rachael.

    However, if you look at the total GOEs for non-jump elements, the situation is quite different.

    Mirai: Olympics 5.00, Nationals 5.14, inflation factor 2.8%.
    Rachael: Olympics 2.50, Nationals 3.50, inflation factor 40.0%.

    Comparatively speaking, Rachael got a huge break from U.S. judges on GOEs on spins, spirals and step sequence, compared to international standards.

    (I did the short programs because the scores in the long programs were dominated by under-rotation calls, which statistically overwhelmed these small discrepancies in GOEs and PCSs.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Factored placements, as in the 6.0 system. The point totals for the SP would be used only to determine the placements in the short program. LP point totals determine placement in the LP. Final score = LP + 1/2 SP ordinals, lowest wins, LP break ties.

    For Polymer Bob's mom, if only the LP were televised they could begin the broadcast by showing the top three SPs.

    Edited to add: So from the television spectators point of view it would go like this. Among the top three, whoever wins the LP wins the gold medal.

    If someone should strike from fourth or fifth place, it would be like the 2002 Olympics. That skater skated great in the LP and the top three all made visible serious errors. Either way the audience goes home feeling that the best performance won.
    If you do the ...... um ...... mathematics on this theory, you end up with the result that the winner of the long program always wins the event. If that is the case, why have a short?

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