Are you counting 4th Place in 2005 Moscow Worlds? What I am amazed at Kwan is that she skated Worlds with injuries since Nagano right through till Moscow which didn't work (enter Kostner) for a placement. I watch US Nationals as a dress rehearsal for Worlds, although this 2011 will be very difficult to consider any two skaters as gold and silver. JMO.
Regarding Sarah - wasn't US Natls pretty close - some may say controversial over who won the Silver?Originally Posted by Mathman
Sarah was the only skater in the world who beat both Michelle and Irina that Olympic season. What do you think she needed to do - maybe order a "hit" on Michelle or Sasha to get a little attention?
Beat Michelle and Irina once in a season - maybe it could be considered luck
Sarah came out on top twice - a coincidence? I do not believe much in coincidences.
It wasn't meant to be rude, even if Joannie's scores had been lower she still would have beaten Flatt. I just mentioned that because her scores were quite high, especially for the LP where she had mistakes, and some feel Nagasu should have beaten her. It was more just to point out that the people who beat Flatt at the Olympics were very impressive, accomplished skaters. At Worlds, she was also beaten by Phanuef and Makarova who aren't so accomplished/talented so it shows that the mistakes cost her there. I don't think anyone expected Flatt to beat Kim, Asada, and Rochette going into the Olympics, and we all thought she had a shot at beating Ando, Lepisto, Nagasu, realistically I think most of us knew that if those 3 skated well, they would be put above Flatt, and that's what happened. Nagasu and Ando had clean LPs and for Laura 5 triples is like a miracle, and thus they beat Flatt.Even without the hometown bonus, Flatt has never beaten Rochette, ever, in Canada or otherwise. Saying Rochette is a World medalist is fine, the underlined part of your sentence is unnecessary if not somewhat disrespectful considering she lost her mother a few days before and most people wouldn't even be able to compete under those circumstances.
No, I was counting the nine Worlds from 1996 through 2004, plus the 1998 and 2002 Olympics.
I don't remember 2002 U.S. Nationals as being particularly controversial. Sasha was the rising star who attracted the most attention with her amazing flexibility and eye-popping positions. Sasha placed ahead of Sarah in both the short and the long programs.Regarding Sarah - wasn't US Natls pretty close - some may say controversial over who won the Silver?
In the SP, the marks were all over the place. Even Michelle did not win all first place ordinals (Sasha got one first place ordinal and Angela Nikodinovalso got one, Michelle taking the other seven.)
In the LP Sasha won silver over Sarah by a score of 7 judges to 2.
Sarah must have been wondering the same thing. By that time she was pretty firmly established as the third best skater in the world, having by-passed Maria Butryskaya for that honor the previous year. The strange thing about Sarah's competitive record is that besides her Olympic gold medal, she won only two senior skating competitions in her whole career:the 1999 Vienna Cup and 2001 Skate Canada. (IMHO she was robbed at 2000 Skate America, but that's another story.)Sarah was the only skater in the world who beat both Michelle and Irina that Olympic season. What do you think she needed to do - maybe order a "hit" on Michelle or Sasha to get a little attention?
Last edited by Mathman; 05-12-2010 at 12:55 PM.
Thank you for the info!
There are other notable publications that carry articles about skating.
Here is what Sports Illustrated thought about the Ladies event at Natls.
Did this writer get it right?
"The crowd was merely perplexed, and the air went out of the building when the results were announced. You might say the judging left everyone but the winner feeling a little bit Flatt."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...5304/index.htm
Phil Hersh is absolutely right. It is illogical and they need to revise their criteria. If the USFSA wants to pour money into Rachael, let them. The end result will be the same. Mirai is light years ahead of Rachael in every respect. Rachael should go on to Stanford. He is only stating the obvious.
Yes, that is exactly what happened. (Although some day people will get tired of making puns off Eachael's last name, as they eventually did with Slutskaya.) Everyone thought that Mirai had given an amazing performance and won the championship.
Chalk one up to the CoP. When the tech specialist announced that two of Mirai's jumps had been downgraded and Rachael won after all, everyone went home scratching their heads, shrugging their shoulders, and saying -- "Figure skating judging -- there they go again!"
This is what I was saying. The rules do make sense. That people are less than thrilled about the U.S. champ is reflection of the overall quality of U.S. ladies skating as compared to previous years. In the past, nobody would complain that that the U.S. champ gets more funding that the second lady - especially if the second lady didn't medal at worlds or the Olympics. Mirai is who I'm most excited about for the moment. But she still has a lot to prove.
Anyway, will it really make much difference? I doubt it. Mirai's got the best coach out there. She's even got endorsements. She did great this year when she was coming into the season as the 5th U.S. lady and probably had much less funding. I really don't think this particularly issue will put her at a disadvantage.
Mountain out of a mole hill.
Actually, she got downgraded on 3 jumps: http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...0/results.html
For the purpose of discussion, here is the HD clip of her Nationals LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJX0_QqCTE
The two Triple Toes are clearly iffy, even without replay, I can see the slight UR in both her Triple Toes. Under the new rule, she would have gotten 70% of the value but will likely lose most of the positive GOE she got from many of the judges.
The one jump I didn't see an issue with, at least from the angle of this clip, is her 2nd Triple Lutz. However, most of the judges seemed to have detect some UR in that particular jump, hence the mostly negative GOE on her 2nd Triple Lutz.
Without a doubt however, the two Triple Toes clearly completed their rotation on ice, it's only a question of how much. The Tech Panel seemed to think it's more than 1/4 of UR. Without the appropriate replay, I can only tell you the 3T are UR but cannot confirm whether they deserve to be downgraded or not. But from a GOE standpoint, my hunch is I am leaning towards -1 for the 2A+3T and the second 3T. So even if she got the call for the 3Lz, for the sake of argument, Flatt would still score high enough to beat Nagasu as the final point difference is roughly 12 points, which can't be covered by the call on the 2nd 3Lz.
While I see no controversy in the 2010 Nationals results because clearly Nagasu did UR at least two Triples, I also like the new rule change because if this were in effect then, she would at least get 70% of the value and thus, the end difference wouldn't be as staggering.
Last edited by wallylutz; 05-12-2010 at 11:32 PM.
The $ difference doesn't seem to be that much, anyway (although in these times, it's likely folks can use every dollar they can get). Certainly not enough IMO for this fuss.
I picked Nagasu some time ago as one who could potentially surprise people (Jenny Kirk did too IIRC) and surprise people she did. Now, if she weren't as young as she is, I'd lose hope after her disappointing Worlds, but I think this can be chalked up to learning experience (although it could also be seen as a small red flag). Too bad she wasn't able to do what Meissner did in 2006, but seems like she (MN) saved that skate for when it counted most (Olys).
If Nagasu had landed that 2A, she would have medaled and probably have gotten A-level funding too. She didn't. So we have what we have. I don't really agree with Hersh here at all.
Simply put, a lot of folks like Flatt and her skating. But Mirai when on is in another league. Everyone seems to love her skating. She really does everything beautifully. Hopefully she is not the next Sasha when it comes to poor competitive nerves.
Poor comparison. Nagasu has had dazzling LPs in the past. Plus people forget- this is the same skater who was CRYING before her Nats LP last year...she could have easily fallen apart but nope, she delivered, right on target.
She can't consistently deliver, (MN), at least so far. She does better as the underdog. The confidence was never solidly there with Sasha either. Who can be more dazzling than Sasha?
I'll bet we will see a very similar pattern and competition results. Sasha had it much tougher, playing second fiddle to the beloved Kwan. Mirai is the best we have and were she tough, we'd never see Allissa or Flatt with a national title. Mirai has everything but faith in herself. Recent Worlds performance show she is an artist and an athlete but not a compeitor. Just like Sasha. I hope I'm wrong, but I see less talented skaters walking away in the future with golds Mirai should win based on her exceptional qualities. Too bad Tara and Sarah and Michelle can't bottle that killer instinct all three have and inject Mirai! It shows how rare it is to be a Kwan, a Witt. I see Mirai as not very mature and she gets intimidated by the other ladies. She seems a very young 16 when we compare her to the personalities of early bloomers like Kwan, Hughes, Lipinski. I think Mirai must feel intimidated by the tough Km, Asada and the very mature Rochette.
We forget there were no expectations other than maybe cracking top ten for either Flatt or Nagasu in Vancouver. Mirai's goal was to skate cleanly. It was clear that Caroll was hugely surprised at her 4th place finish as well.
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