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Thread: Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

  1. #76
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post

    as for CoP there are a lot of skaters who also love the concept. so it's not that cut and dry.

    .
    I can think of skaters like Lambiel, Weir and even Plushy now who are not fond of CoP.
    More interesting to me is to hear greats from the past rip it. Boitano, Hamilton, Button have all had very negative things to say about CoP.

    The most recent skater to state her disapproval of the CoP was Chen-Lu. Her complaint - the skaters all look the same now.

    I think the reason I loved Lulu's skating so much is because she was different. Nobody skated like her then - or now.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I can think of skaters like Lambiel, Weir and even Plushy now who are not fond of CoP.
    Not exactly the ones I would be listening to when it comes to CoP...

    More interesting to me is to hear greats from the past rip it. Boitano, Hamilton, Button have all had very negative things to say about CoP.
    Button praised it up and down on ABC, then came to NBC and ripped it a new one. I don't think it was time so much as paycheck that helped him with that. Scott Hamilton was part of the 'don't change the judging system' new world order movement, so I take what he says with that in mind (amazingly enough I don't let him do my thinking for me). Boitano I have not heard him praise or rip it... he's too PC, to me, for that.

    The most recent skater to state her disapproval of the CoP was Chen-Lu. Her complaint - the skaters all look the same now.
    that's a very tired argument, I see it being no different, I've been watching past tapes dating back to the early 90s... skaters repeating programs over the years. (Scott Hamilton stated in his book he used the same choreography for years, just changed up pieces of music and maybe added or subtracted a few steps). Skaters following the 'winning pattern' (even before CoP you had Joubert trying to be Yagudin). And I'd argue that Michelle Kwan's programs were interchangable. There are few shining stars in ANY era. The ones of the 'bygone days' just look that much more rosy because of the tint of your glasses. (Well, that, and some of them just have larger than life personalities. We don't have a lot of those with the current crop, but skaters like Johnny Weir don't happen all the time anyway.)

    I think the reason I loved Lulu's skating so much is because she was different. Nobody skated like her then - or now.
    Exactly my point - yeah there are a lot of boring skaters, there were when Chen was skating, too. There'll always be a couple of stand outs, whether or not they're on the top of the podium doesn't matter in that way. Judging systems don't give the skaters personality and they don't take it away. Any skater using that as an excuse just doesn't want to break out of the 'what works' mold, and they wouldn't have if it were 6.0 OR CoP.

  3. #78
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    MM is right. There's just that something missing for me...that adrenaline, the nervousness I used to feel before a major competition has virtually disappeared. Until this year, the last time I felt it was in 2006(?) could have been 2005. But at least at Nationals this year I was glad that the feeling returned (for the SP)- I missed it, it felt good- but at Olys I felt like I didn't really care what happened. By worlds I couldn't even be bothered watching...and up to that point I have watched every single Worlds since 2002, when I began following skating. I still have not seen it except for parts of Nagasu's performance.

    The Cop is a big part of it, but another one is the state of the American ladies.
    Last edited by R.D.; 05-13-2010 at 10:41 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Oh for Pete's sake? Where was Rachael on the cover of Time magazine?
    Very little was said about Rachael leading into Vancouver. Is it because so many thought she was not the deserving champion?

    Maybe because skating popularity has dropped quite a bit in USA since the 2002 scandal and the introduction of the CoP.

    Here is where it stands in my family: I would have given Dai the OGM. My mom can't stand Evan and thinks Plushy wuz robbed. My sister said rachael is the least accomplished US Lady champion she ever saw and did not care much about watching the Olympics after the results at Natls.

    My sister skated alot when she was young, took dance classes and doesn't buy into CoP scoring and thinks it is ruining the aesthetic appeal of skating. She said of Rachael "she skates with as much finesse as a truck driver."

    Like many former skating fans she has stopped watching.
    This post is also called "One Family's Opinion". Sorry there is no construction or destruction here - just an opinion.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    This post is also called "One Family's Opinion". Sorry there is no construction or destruction here - just an opinion.
    It was meant to be exactly like the post I am responding to right now - which also seems to be an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    If the Mathman says this, it's really a deep problem. After all, you GET the math. And I completely agree with your point about how the CoP puts a barrier between the skaters and the audience. Most of us will stay with skating because our love for it is so deep even when we don't understand the results. But it will indeed drive potential fans away, because fandom starts looking like something they have to be qualified for. You can't say this often enough.
    Unfortunately, there are Posters who talk about the informed fans which rule out all the problems of other fans who do not keep abreast of the various changes in scoring or understanding of the scoring. I could add that kind of thinking is why interest in figure skating is joyless and has already begun to fade away its one-time popularity.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    a lot of "fans" stopped watching when Michelle Kwan quit skating here in the US. I think that's when the real exodus occurred...

    as for CoP there are a lot of skaters who also love the concept. so it's not that cut and dry.

    I think there are some people who were looking for any excuse not to the love the sport anymore. It's still skating be it 6.0 or CoP... we're just all a bunch of wanna be dramaqueens who watch a sport filled with dramaqueens... so yeah everything is so horrible.
    I think this is a speak for yourself which is fine, but not for others.

    The CoP gives a lot of information back to the skater especially for the Juvenile and Novice divisions. For the Seniors, it's just a slap in the face. A Flutz is not a legal jump and that's what some skaters do. The UR is painfully scored by all the skaters when it's not felt by the skater. A Fall, etc. well, you know

  8. #83
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    [QUOTE=Tonichelle;501973]
    (Scott Hamilton stated in his book he used the same choreography for years, just changed up pieces of music and maybe added or subtracted a few steps). Skaters following the 'winning pattern' (even before CoP you had Joubert trying to be Yagudin). And I'd argue that Michelle Kwan's programs were interchangable. There are few shining stars in ANY era. The ones of the 'bygone days' just look that much more rosy because of the tint of your glasses. (Well, that, and some of them just have larger than life personalities. We don't have a lot of those with the current crop, but skaters like Johnny Weir don't happen all the time anyway.)
    Good post. I can understand Hamilton saying he used the same choreography for years. Figure Skating is a finite art form and now with CoP has been more finite. The scoring has eliminated so many skating items by issuing various directives, even jumps are not repeated for choreography but can be in in combos. Oh, the sport of it all. Rarely does one see a really grand performance by a skater. Good choreographers are few, and even they can not work out much from the basic material they are given. The demand in figure skating is not choreography, sadly, but in allowable BIG TRICKS. So why not use the same old tricks to new music which is used more as background music than for interpretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Even without the hometown bonus, Flatt has never beaten Rochette, ever, in Canada or otherwise. Saying Rochette is a World medalist is fine, the underlined part of your sentence is unnecessary if not somewhat disrespectful considering she lost her mother a few days before and most people wouldn't even be able to compete under those circumstances.
    Ashley Wagner wacked Rochette at the GPF. Ashley has never beaten Flatt, ever, in Canada or otherwise. So?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    This is one of those rare cases where the CoP and the 6.0 System work differently. (I usually find that the end result of the two systems are the same.)

    Mirai would have won under the 6.0 system but the CoP went for the points.

    Imo, the CoP is good as a nitty gritty sport determinant but the 6.0 system has more of the essence of Figure Skating. The CoP does not capture the 'Finished' look of a Senior skater. However, the CoP does show Juveniles, Novices the work which leads to a great Senior.
    Mirai would not have won under the 6.0 system.
    Case in point, they always award the one with more triples and triple-triple combo. Sarah Hughes over Irina in 2002. Tara over Michelle in 1998.

    In the SP, under 6.0, they would put Rachael first.
    In the LP, her 7 triples would trump Mirai who didn't even have a Salchow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    My complaint was not that the tech panel was incorrect in penalizing Mirai's faulty jumps. My complaint is that under the CoP figure skating is becoming a sport that is of interest only to experts and insiders, and the general public is more and more being turned away.
    This statement is completely unfair. In most cases, the winners are fairly clear these days. Except a few notable exceptions, the enjoyment of the sport has not been hindered by any close decisions within the CoP. The fact is fan base in this sport grew quite a bit in Asia, it's quite crazy over there in the past 4 years whereas the U.S. saw a significant appreciation of fans in Ice Dance as witnessed by expanded coverage in this discipline.

    Under 6.0 judging, I, as an average fan, could easily form a well-reasoned opinion about which skater's performance I liked the best. Sometimes the expert judges agreed, sometimes they didn't, and sometimes the judges panel was split, with some judges agreeing with me and some holding a different opinion.
    And nothing has changed in this regard. What makes you think Mirai would have defeated Rachael under 6.0 at the 2010 Nationals? Flatt didn't exactly skate like crap. Did Mirai have a Triple-Triple? Nope. Rachael did. See? Under 6.0, I could have easily justified why Mirai should be where she was - 3rd in the FS. I could even invent reasons like "she is not artistic enough or not as mature as Wagner" and start to play with the Technical Merit like Nagasu: 5.8/5.7 and give Wagner 5.7/5.8 with the nod going to Wagner for the 2nd mark on fairly subjective reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    Now, I am not really permitted to have an opinion at all.
    Really, someone is holding a gun to your head and ask you to shut up? Seriously, why are there so many threads here and elsewhere debating the merits of certain outcomes in this past year? Aren't those people afraid of getting shot or something?

    I may think that Mirai skated great, but here come the protocols the next day saying, oh you silly person, Mirai didn't skate well at all; you are just showing your ignorance of skating if you think she did.
    uh...are we talking about those same people in the audience who can't tell the difference between a Triple Toe from a Double Salchow? :sheesh: Have you been to a live national / international competition at the senior level? Because if you have, you'd realize most of the people in that audience are pretty clueless when it comes to technical standard. Most of them can't even distinguish between the different jump types or how many rotations there are in a given jump. Don't mean to be condescending but that's what the average people are and there is nothing wrong with that. However, I certainly wouldn't rely on the crowd's reaction as any determinant factor and this isn't specific to figure skating. Any judged sport will have this kind of crowd effect, both positive and negative. When Fusar-Poli/Margaglio splashed big time on ice in Torino 06, the crowd still booed their marks. What can do you about that? Johnny Weir placed 6th in Vancouver, some people in the crowd booed as well - doesn't make the placement any less legitimate.

    Honestly, I think what a reasonable person would have done if he/she is surprised by the outcome, is to go check the protocol, and then formulate an opinion on the fairness of such result after seeing it. It has happened that when I watch casually, I do not comprehend a certain decision right away. The protocol helps a great deal - doesn't mean I have to agree with the results, but at least, it helps me understand the other side's point of view and I can respect that. What you seem to suggest is unless a decision is to your liking, then it's no good. Can you try to respect others may have a legitimate difference of opinion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    If the Mathman says this, it's really a deep problem. After all, you GET the math. And I completely agree with your point about how the CoP puts a barrier between the skaters and the audience. Most of us will stay with skating because our love for it is so deep even when we don't understand the results. But it will indeed drive potential fans away, because fandom starts looking like something they have to be qualified for. You can't say this often enough.
    CoP is more than just math, it doesn't help if the said person doesn't actually understand and is able, for instance, to catch UR when watching.

    Anyone who claims CoP is responsible for the decline of this sport - please explain to me why has it been so difficult to get an Olympic ticket to any of the figure skating events, even the Compulsory Dance?

    Have any of you even bothered to try to get the Ladies SP and FS tickets in Vancouver? You know, the Ladies FS tickets in Vancouver - the lower level seats were going for $2,500~$3,000 a piece on the official secondary market. Seems to me, if this sport was in decline as many of you lamented, then it should have been very easy to get those tickets, no? Most other sports, except the finals in Ice hockey, in Vancouver were very easy to get tickets and they were mostly like $50, $80 a piece and you get good seat. In Figure Skating, Compulsory Dance lower level seats are $425 - Face Value and usually sold for above face value.

    Finally, ISU World Team Trophy is again going to take place in April 2011 in Yokohama, Japan. The sponsors and ISU are going to award over $1 million in cash to the qualified skaters and their teams. I repeat, $1 million dollars. What other amateur sports award this kind of prize money for a semi-show / semi-competition event?

    If the sport is in a serious decline as many have claimed, then there are certainly other things going on that show otherwise.

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    i disagree the us athletes know what they have to do--if they don't make tier one way at nationals they have another chance in the internatioal.
    you cant blame rachel rachel did what she was supposed to at worlds --finish in top 10. mirai could have been in tier one if she medal--she blew her long at worlds--don't blame usfsa for mirai screwup at worlds. she had her chance.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    but is that CoP doing that to you, or you doing that to yourself. People - including me - balked at the CHANGE... then those that were excited about the mathmatics end of it started talking it up (as I recall you were excited about it at first?). Then as they tweak it more and more people get frustrated because it feels like it's taking 'so long' we're so used to instant gratification that we don't like the waiting, be it for the scores, the standings, the protocols, or for the judges to get it right.

    Interestingly enough we're not arguing more or less over who should have won, and it still boils down to 'my favorite didn't win so I'm gonna cry the wuzrobbed song.'
    Well said, it's just another lame excuse at the end of the day. The whole Nagasu vs. Flatt debacle boils down to: "My favorite didn't win, she was robbed!" It's not about the CoP and it's not about the judges or the Tech Panel. They are just scapegoats. Even if we are still under 6.0 and Nagasu didn't win, the same people will just invent another excuse.

    Here is the part I don't get. I posted the HD clip of Nagasu's LP in Spokane. I pointed out the UR of her Triple Toes appear to be visually visible - in other words, no slow motion was required to detect them. So it begs to ask, given the stated justification, why don't those people say:

    1) Oh I get it, thanks for pointing out, let me review my thinking in light of that

    or

    2) Nah, what UR? I can't see any


    It's one thing people who claimed they can't see the errors, therefore, don't understand. I am sure a lot of those people who were perplexed in the audience were shown the errors made by Nagasu, they would have understood or at least open to reexamine their thinking in light of the explanation. Nope, some people, even after being told of the errors and the accompanying evidence to support it - categorically refused to be educated. Then, they can't be helped. The wuzrobbed crowd is annoying because they whine and whine and will claim the Earth will be destroyed unless things go their way. :sheesh:

  15. #90
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    When posters talk of skating interest decline they really
    mean in the US. because that's clearly what's happening (although it remains to be seen whether Lysacek's OGM will help reverse the trend)

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