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Thread: Hersh: Nagasu not on par with Flatt? HUH?

  1. #121
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    How about this? Take all jumping out of figure skating. That eliminates 90 % of all arguments. And besides; Alissa will then be the best in the world.

  2. #122
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    I now ask this: who's gonna take the time to read those things besides dedicated skating fans? Come on. Let's try to see the big picture rather than look from inside the skatefan bubble. Frankly, it's just a bunch of numbers and for anyone other than dedicated, informed skating fans, they need explaining. Where are they going to get that info? Better yet, if I simply watch every 4 years and do other things in the meantime, why am I going to care enough anyway?

    More than ever, TV needs to convey the rules and results as clearly and concisely as possible. Going into details will turn people off, but at the same time, being general and vague "That's worth a LOT of points!!" will confuse people when results need explaining. And sometimes even the experts don't understand the score. Doesn't help matters any. (ETA: I think someone like Tara Lipinski could find that happy medium: keeping the viewer informed without being confusing, and making the TV viewer feel like he/she is knowledgeable enough about the sport to continue watching. The diving commentator does that; why can't they do it in skating?)
    I agree RD. I like your use of "skatefan bubble" which I took be be code for "elitist."

    I think of the old question, "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it still make a sound?"

    And it is worrisome that this can too easily be changed to this:

    "If a skater falls on the ice and no one is there to see it do they still get a deduction?"

  3. #123
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    I like the basic idea of this proposal, if I have it right: the average ("consensus") scores for each element should be posted in real time so all can see it, and simplify the elements somewhat. Joesitz seems to be suggesting something between the extreme simplicity of the scores posted now (just technical, program and overall) and the extreme detail of the protocols which are available only later, and only to the dedicated few.
    This idea of mine, does not kill the CoP. The judges can follow the CoP as they do now. The posting of a cconsensus of the judges would not take up time. It's all in the same computer. Using the same criteria for the CoP, each judge could list their scores for all the jumps, all the spins, and all the footwork as usual. Each of the total scores for spins, jumps and footwork wouldbe divided by the total number of judges. We would have the concensus of each of the spins, jumps and footwork per skater, and also of the Line, musicianship and innovation displayed on the Jumbothon for the in house spectators, and the TV camera to show to the home viewers and we would know the Podium. (Think of those score caddie ladies flashing numbers to the audience in years past.)

    To alleviate the fears of some officials, the scoring would still be secret. At least, the spectators would have some knowledge of what went into the Results. I think it would spur on some of the lagging interest of figure skating today. Now what would be the problem(s) with the hierarchy?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    This idea of mine, does not kill the CoP. The judges can follow the CoP as they do now. The posting of a cconsensus of the judges would not take up time. It's all in the same computer. Using the same criteria for the CoP, each judge could list their scores for all the jumps, all the spins, and all the footwork as usual. Each of the total scores for spins, jumps and footwork wouldbe divided by the total number of judges. We would have the concensus of each of the spins, jumps and footwork per skater, and also of the Line, musicianship and innovation displayed on the Jumbothon for the in house spectators, and the TV camera to show to the home viewers and we would know the Podium. (Think of those score caddie ladies flashing numbers to the audience in years past.)

    To alleviate the fears of some officials, the scoring would still be secret. At least, the spectators would have some knowledge of what went into the Results. I think it would spur on some of the lagging interest of figure skating today. Now what would be the problem(s) with the hierarchy?
    This seems like a good idea and would also invite more fans into the small CoP skating bubble.

    But what makes anyone think ISU cares about the fans?
    Do their actions in the past few years show this?

    Didn't a lack of operating funds force them to use fewer judges last season - in an Olympic year ?
    If they can't afford to pay a full judging panel what makes you think they would spend a few bucks to be more fan friendly?

  5. #125
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    Especially when it's easier than ever to get inside.
    I have not found it to be easy at all. I have memorized the base values of all the triple jumps. But I do not feel any the wiser for having done so. I have learned what foot and edge different jumps take off from, but in real time I cannot usually tell which jump a skater is performing.

    You once posted a "test" consisting of videos of twenty or so steps and turns. I got one right (I spotted a twizzle )

    People refer me to youtube and indignantly exclaim, look at this jump, it is obviously under-rotated by120 degrees. To me, nothing about the degree of rotation is obvious no matter how many times I play the tape back.

    I have concluded that figure skating judges are alien beings who not only have super-vision but also can discern things by senses unknown to earthlings. I think a person has to have skated a lot as a child to ever get the hang of it (judging, that is.)

    I think the ISU's problem is -- they don't see this as a problem. Maybe it's not. Anyway, I like Joe's suggestion of how better to present scores to the audience.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-14-2010 at 06:41 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have not found it to be easy at all. I have memorized the base values of all the triple jumps. But I do not feel any the wiser for having done so. I have learned what foot and edge different jumps take off from, but in real time I cannot usually tell which jump a skater is performing.

    You once posted a "test" consisting of videos of twenty or so steps and turns. I got one right (I spotted a twizzle )

    People refer me to youtube and indignantly exclaim, look at this jump, it is obviously under-rotated by120 degrees. To me, nothing about the degree of rotation is obvious no matter how many times I play the tape back.

    I have concluded that figure skating judges are alien beings who not only have super-vision but also can discern things by senses unknown to earthlings. I think a person has to have skated a lot as a child to ever get the hang of it (judging, that is.)

    I think the ISU's problem is -- they don't see this as a problem. Maybe it's not. Anyway, I like Joe's suggestion of how better to present scores to the audience.
    Thank you for your candor! It makes me feel better. I made recognizing the elements my first priority, before memorizing the rules and scoring. Unfortunately, though I've made lots of progress, I'm far from realizing that goal. Maybe I can make strides this summer.... but I'm a "casual fan" on this board (if not to my family and friends who never watch skating).

    About Joe's proposal -- is there any reason why the extra (but not overwhelming) detail would cost money? I mean, they wouldn't need to rebuild the scoreboards, would they?

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    This idea of mine, does not kill the CoP. The judges can follow the CoP as they do now. The posting of a cconsensus of the judges would not take up time. It's all in the same computer. Using the same criteria for the CoP, each judge could list their scores for all the jumps, all the spins, and all the footwork as usual. Each of the total scores for spins, jumps and footwork wouldbe divided by the total number of judges. We would have the concensus of each of the spins, jumps and footwork per skater, and also of the Line, musicianship and innovation displayed on the Jumbothon for the in house spectators, and the TV camera to show to the home viewers and we would know the Podium. (Think of those score caddie ladies flashing numbers to the audience in years past.)
    Just one thing ........ Does the audience tally all these facts and figures before or after the standing ovation?

    And if it turns out their ovation was unwarranted, can they retract it?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Under the CoP, the message from the skating establishment is, oh you stupid spectator, you don't know a Salchow from a flip, just shut up and we will tell you who skated well and who didn't.
    in the Weir/Lysacek case it was splitting hairs with change of edge in a dang spin. it was lousy judging/lousy call same as in an ordinals battle. I've never come away from teh CoP feeling as if I was being talked down to. Confused at the outcome? heck yeah, but that's no different than the old system, at least I can work back from where/how they got their scores to see where they don't match up with mine.

  9. #129
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    Just one thing ........ Does the audience tally all these facts and figures before or after the standing ovation?

    And if it turns out their ovation was unwarranted, can they retract it?


    I am left with such an uneasy feeling about this.
    I also believe the judgement of a packed arena of fans is right more often than wrong.
    In cases where the fans disagree with the results I am looking for mistakes the judges or even system made and not questioning the fans.

    I disagree about the results of Natls. I think the fans knew who showed the best skating.
    I think perhaps the judges did too. Once US Skating and NBC were removed as a factor we saw an instant reversal in how our top two girls were judged.

    No need to question the fans as they were right and longtime fans smelled the politics a mile away.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I disagree about the results of Natls. I think the fans knew who showed the best skating.
    I think perhaps the judges did too. Once US Skating and NBC were removed as a factor we saw an instant reversal in how our top two girls were judged.
    Last year, once US Skating and NBC were removed as a factor we saw an instant reversal in how our top three girls were judged.

  11. #131
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    Last year NBC did not have the money invested in Worlds that they had in the Olympics this season.
    Last year NBC paid ISU $0.00 for Worlds broadcast rights (because Skating is less popular in USA than in years past).
    This season, Worlds were not shown on network TV in the USA (because skating is less popular than in yeasr past).

    But the Vancouver Olympics were broadcast on network TV. A funny thing happened and NBC chose to show much less skating and much more of the other events (because skating is less popular in the USA than in years past).

    The proponents of CoP don't like to hear this and offer up some interesting theories including that skating is more popular now than it used to be in Korea. They offer this up with the stern conviction that Koreans only love Yuna because of CoP - and had she skated under 6.0 then most would never have noticed her.

    Sadly, that is one of their better lines
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-15-2010 at 05:52 AM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    The proponents of CoP don't like to hear this and offer up some interesting theories including that skating is more popular now than it used to be in Korea. They offer this up with the stern conviction that Koreans only love Yuna because of CoP - and had she skated under 6.0 then most would never have noticed her.

    Sadly, that is one of their better lines
    CoP didn't kill interest in the US. We were already seeing a decline in ratings BEFORE 2002... after the media debacle and juding scandal of SLC there was a sharp drop (it also didn't help that Michelle Kwan was pulling more and more away from skating to focus on life). Michelle's departure from skating took a whole lot of fans with it...

    I don't think anyone believes CoP is perfect, but to blame it for all of the world's problems seems a bit over dramatic. To deny skating's popularity in other countries because it doesn't benefit where you sit also doesn't help, and it isn't truthful. The ISU is going to go where the money is. If skating isn't doing well in the US that's the USFSA's problem to promote it, not the ISU's.

  13. #133
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Correct me if I am wrong but my fuzzy old memory seems to remember Michelle skating at US Natls in '03, '04 and '05. I seem to recall that Michelle also skated at Worlds in '03, '04 and '05.

    Leading into '06 Michelle was making headlines trying to get ready to skate in Torino. The USA had a new champion in Sasha who was one of the favorites in Torino.

    I am not denying skatings popularity in Korea. I am denying that CoP deserves any credit for it as some have tried to claim. Yuna is a phenom and most likely would have boosted interest regardless of where she came from and which system she skated under is of no consequence.

    Perhaps it is just a coincidence that skating has dropped so much in the USA. Why limit it to USA though. How many posts do we see from Europe when we are huddled over a Live stream and posting on GS - "please, is there a stream that works in Europe?" EuroSport is showing Darts and i can't find skating anywhere on TV in Europe."

    I think the SLC scandal and it's legacy - the new scoring system - bear the brunt of the burden for the falling off of skating in N. America. Several Euro countries were indignant that the Canadians (with help from USA) dared to expose them and we have to wonder if everytime they watch skating , like us they are reminded of the cheating factor. Maybe not - because like here, many of those Euro fans have left too.

    This bit about trying to make skating into a "real sport" without cleaning house and removing the corrupt ISU officials who lived in a world of bribes and backroom deals was bound to run into problems. Don't ever underestimate the anonymous judging factor - it caused many fans to walk away. Many who stayed truly loath it.

    I agree ISU needs to follow the money because they have made mistakes in their traditional markets.
    I also agree with Dick Button and the way he felt an intricate sport like skating needed to be presented to the vast TV market. To keep the viewers they had to feel like they got it and not like their opinions were meaningless because they didn't know enough about it.

    The IJS is still new and as we can see it is being tweaked every year. Is it the fault of the broadcasters that it is close to impossible to present skating as a sport to a fan base in which the vast majority have very little chance of understanding which jumps are good and which jumps are bad? And why?
    Some of us were raised to believe that falling was a mistake. Today we are told not completing the rotations can be even worse. Problem is we could all see a fall......


    I love the remarks from countries with new fans when they post " I watched that YouTube clip and her jump was only 2.25 revolutions." Yea, right, thanks in advance to all of you experts out there who can determine to a hundredth of a degree the rotations in a jump from a YouTube clip (sigh) ....
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-15-2010 at 07:36 AM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    Just one thing ........ Does the audience tally all these facts and figures before or after the standing ovation?

    And if it turns out their ovation was unwarranted, can they retract it?
    No, from the Jumbothon, they read what all the judges thought of the skating prowess and performance for each skater and the consensus is also shown on TV. The audience just has to sit back and see the results. They may not agree with the consensus, but they will not go home puzzled. (Of course the secrecy of the judges are maintained and one can not pin point the results on any one judge.)

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    This seems like a good idea and would also invite more fans into the small CoP skating bubble.

    But what makes anyone think ISU cares about the fans?
    Do their actions in the past few years show this?


    Didn't a lack of operating funds force them to use fewer judges last season - in an Olympic year ?
    If they can't afford to pay a full judging panel what makes you think they would spend a few bucks to be more fan friendly?
    The ISU and the USFS are the caretakers of figure skating and that requires money, The drop in revenues has shown that the fans have less interest in figure skating. Apparently, the CoP will continue, so suggestions to can it just wont work. What needs to be done is to appease what's left of the fanbase of figure skating. Hence my suggestions to have a happy in house audience and home viewers. The audience at the Arena are good for spreading the word. The home viewers bring up the TV ratings.

    What seems to be happening is the branch of the ISU dealing with Regulations, have again amended some of the established directives which may make some of the audience more confused. These changes may indeed improve the overall set up but they are still clear as mud to the average fanbase. Something has to be done for the Fans to understand the CoP or they will definitely lose interest. A visible Consensus of what the judges score for each skater is my humble suggestion. I welcome other suggestions.

    However, finding another Kwan may take 20 years, and I am not totallly convinced that will do it. New fans growing up have different tastes as can be seen from our present fanbase who know little about skating before 1980.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    CoP didn't kill interest in the US. We were already seeing a decline in ratings BEFORE 2002... after the media debacle and juding scandal of SLC there was a sharp drop (it also didn't help that Michelle Kwan was pulling more and more away from skating to focus on life). Michelle's departure from skating took a whole lot of fans with it...

    I don't think anyone believes CoP is perfect, but to blame it for all of the world's problems s
    eems a bit over dramatic. To deny skating's popularity in other countries because it doesn't benefit where you sit also doesn't help, and it isn't truthful. The ISU is going to go where the money is. If skating isn't doing well in the US that's the USFSA's problem to promote it, not the ISU's.
    Yes, the CoP wasn't the only thing that killed FS, but it did play a big role in killing it, imo. Much too confusing for the average skating fan!!
    The scandal just proved that those pretty little girls are part of a network of a fixed sport, so why watch it?
    Kwan gave the sport a bit of class which it lost on her retirement. Don't expect another Kwan for at least 20 years. I'm not at all sure that was a reason for the decline.

    The ISU has to go where the money is to manage its regulatory operations. If there was no ISU, there would soon be another, or no international competitions.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have not found it to be easy at all. I have memorized the base values of all the triple jumps. But I do not feel any the wiser for having done so. I have learned what foot and edge different jumps take off from, but in real time I cannot usually tell which jump a skater is performing.

    You once posted a "test" consisting of videos of twenty or so steps and turns. I got one right (I spotted a twizzle )

    People refer me to youtube and indignantly exclaim, look at this jump, it is obviously under-rotated by120 degrees. To me, nothing about the degree of rotation is obvious no matter how many times I play the tape back.


    I have concluded that figure skating judges are alien beings who not only have super-vision but also can discern things by senses unknown to earthlings. I think a person has to have skated a lot as a child to ever get the hang of it (judging, that is.)

    I think the ISU's problem is -- they don't see this as a problem. Maybe it's not. Anyway, I like Joe's suggestion of how better to present scores to the audience.
    I thought it was just me! In real time, I can't tell most of the jumps. I've been a skating fan for decades, too. Maybe I ought to turn in my credentials. Trouble is, if I feel not quite qualified to watch skating, how do you think some newcomer feels about it?

    I'll stay around, though. I just hope I get technologically savvy in time to be able to chase down the webcasts of competitions, because I fear they won't be on TV anymore. Instead, the tube will be broadcasting those yelling wrestlers and loud sportscars, because that's where the money is.

    Why is that?

    How is it even possible that a sport as beautiful and exciting as skating could manage to alienate audiences? Do we really think that the categories of viewers who would naturally gravitate toward skating--predominantly girls, women, mathematicians, musicians, artists, historians--have found that they really prefer wrestling and auto racing? I don't even like riding in a slow car. Why would I want to watch a bunch of fast ones? How did it happen that people who talk of Rachmaninoff and Ravel would be considered as a possible audience for half-nekkid behemoths who throw other behemoths to the ground for money? How did those sports get so much advertising revenue while the revenues for skating dried up?

    Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

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