Would Plush have won if the new rules had been applied? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Would Plush have won if the new rules had been applied?

princess9

On the Ice
Joined
May 1, 2010
Lysacek was not in Salt Lake City Olympics, LOL... Have you forgotten that Yagudin was 5th in his first Olympics, not even worth a pewter?

About Yagudin, he would not have won with his SLC performances in Vancouver. Not with his spins and level one footwork! Was it one triple axel that Yagudin did not even do in his freeskate?

YES, Jaana, sleep deprivation is awful. What year is this anyway???? :scratch::scratch:

Meant to say Torino. I'll have to watch again to see the jumps. I loved his footwork. His axels were above the boards and if we want so much footwork from the men, then we will have ice dance as Plush said. I prefer the Yagudin programs of SLC to any in Vancouver. So exciting to see Quad then triple then double. You can't have it all and I'd like to see the exciting risky jump combos back in the game.

Yagudin as compared to Lysacek? No comparison as to the better athlete and equally as "artistic." I miss Yagudin much.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
It is very true that Lysaceks performance was all about gaining the points to win-probably why it lacked any personality-so many jumps after the halfway point and all that stuff. He was always very busy and personality free and in any system that skate would be about points.

I don't agree that it lacked personality, but I do think the basic point is correct: Lysacek understood the rules and skated to win. I think he would have created a program that exploited the rules. And maybe he would've fought harder for the quad. In the end, it's hard to really judge.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
I don't agree that it lacked personality, but I do think the basic point is correct: Lysacek understood the rules and skated to win.

Aren´t especially the top skaters in a competitions, because they try to win and not just for fun? Exhibitions are for fun, I would say. Anyway, I think that any intelligent skater would have a choreographer who understands about CoP.
 

ranjake

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 19, 2005
Lololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!( laughing at the idea of awarding a facebook medal!)

I'll bet by now Plush has the event more in perspective, because honestly what he accomplished in Vancouver was an amazing achievement. If he'd stuck with his "I'll be happy with any color medal, even bronze would give me one of each" comments, we would see only the amazing feat he accomplished. Also, I like Evan's personality- different strokes and all that.
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Anyway, I think that any intelligent skater would have a choreographer who understands about CoP.

Ah ok lets say then that Lysacek was 1.3 points (SP and LP combined) more intelligent than Plushenko and won fair and square. Because he beated a non intelligent, mediocre Plushenko-half the skater he used to be- by this margin. I had not seen that perspective of the outcome:hb:
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Ah ok lets say then that Lysacek was 1.3 points (SP and LP combined) more intelligent than Plushenko and won fair and square. Because he beated a non intelligent, mediocre Plushenko-half the skater he used to be- by this margin. I had not seen that perspective of the outcome:hb:

Well, in the freeskate Plushenko was ridiculously held up by the judges both in technical elements and especially in PCS, in my opinion. That is why the result was so close. You think that Plushenko was half the skater he used to be? He did not get points accordingly, LOL. Actually I thought that his performance kind of reminded me of his freeskate in 2006 Olympics. The jumping was though off, but it was not off at 2010 Europeans, was it?. Maybe the nerves got to Plushenko now, at least somewhat?
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
At Europeans Plushenko had a major step out of a jump. He made mistakes in all his competitions the past season. Doubling a jump at the cup of Russia, tripling a quad at the russian championships, the doubling and step out at euros, and then the tilting at the Olympics. LOL the "tilting." I think it was just a matter of him already having a gold medal so that hunger or killer instinct for another one was not really there when it counted but he was stll tremendously skilled and wanted to show that off.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think it was just a matter of him already having a gold medal so that hunger for one was not there.

Perhaps it was the pressure of trying to be like Dick Button :)

I think he skates exactly like he always did but his knees probably effect how well he can perform on a given night. I thought he skated better at Euros than he did in Vancouver and all things considered his comeback was remarkable.

It will be interesting to see if he returns and competes next season.
And the same for Evan.

I just watched Jeremy's Natls LP and if he had skated like that in Vancouver he would have won - and quite easily. I don't think another skater in the world had a performance that was equal to Jeremy's best this season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJorSTaB59I
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Well, in the freeskate Plushenko was ridiculously held up by the judges both in technical elements and especially in PCS, in my opinion. That is why the result was so close. You think that Plushenko was half the skater he used to be? He did not get points accordingly, LOL. Actually I thought that his performance kind of reminded me of his freeskate in 2006 Olympics. The jumping was though off, but it was not off at 2010 Europeans, was it?. Maybe the nerves got to Plushenko now, at least somewhat?

I thought competition result is the sum of Sp and Lp, and I already said Lysacek should have won the Lp and Takahashi the sp. We will never agree why the result was so close, but if you imply judges (and technical controller by the way) ♥♥♥ Plushenko to give him a medal but they just were objective with Lysacek and his marks reflected what he did, there is no room for talking, I ll pass.

How about the fact that the PCs of the Olympic Champion got up 10 whole points in a year since previous March? And skates close to 80 in sp for example reached 90s now? He was not that better.

Plushenko's skate was off throughtout the season for his jump standars, especially with lutz. I meant half the skater of Plushenko in his prime time before his surgery 2005, when he had double speed and lots more flexibilty and jumps out of nowhere. I didnt mean The Plushenko of Torino who was a skater holding in strings to win his gold, his injuries and surgeries are just a little less advertised than the I hurt my foot last march, cant train a quad now.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Whatever became of the Plush army? Are they still trying to "free Lutai" :think: :)
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Well, no one asked this question but Yagudin would still win gold with his Salt Lake performances under CoP or any system because he had everything it takes. Plus points for handsome and very masculine!:biggrin: He's so much more a complete skater than the three from Vancouver. In Salt Lake Evan would have won pewter. Oh, forgot he actually was in fact fourth!

I have forgiven the Plush One for his outbursts. He's so gutsy and he used to be much better. Sigh. Still, one has to admire the effort and the resolve. 3 medals in three Olympics won't likely occur again.:bow:

Evan had a miserable SP in his first Olympics and then skated the best he could in the LP to pull up to fourth. Are we supposed to shoot him for that?

So what if he didn't beat Plushenko at his first Olympics? You love Sarah so much, well how long did it take her to beat Michelle at an international competition? Are we supposed to sneer at Sarah because she was third at 2001 Worlds behind Michelle and third at 2002 Nationals behind Michelle? What does that prove?

Maybe it takes away from Evan's gold medal that Plushenko and Takahashi were not at their best that night. And maybe it takes away from Sarah's Olympic gold medal that Michelle and Irina were not at THEIR best.

Or maybe not. Maybe Evan and Sarah are both talented skaters who held it together when it counted most and other didn't. Neither of them were my favorite skaters in either Olympics. But both gave the best LP of the night and good for them.
 

princess9

On the Ice
Joined
May 1, 2010
I never said I love Sarah so much, Layfan. I don't know her and she's not my favorite skater either. I'm not dissing Evan. I just added Yagudin was so special his performances beat any at Vancouver. At least IMO. My OP was how would Sarah's skate hold up under CoP given how tech demanding it was and very good in all other aspects. Yet to get an answer from the CoP 'experts.'
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I never said I love Sarah so much, Layfan. I don't know her and she's not my favorite skater either. I'm not dissing Evan. I just added Yagudin was so special his performances beat any at Vancouver. At least IMO. My OP was how would Sarah's skate hold up under CoP given how tech demanding it was and very good in all other aspects. Yet to get an answer from the CoP 'experts.'

Well. Sorry if I overreacted a bit. I guess my only point is that it doesn't really prove anything to point out that Evan was fourth at Torino since he was not at his best...

As for Sarah, I can't help you much because I'm far, far from a COP expert. But I think many people have pointed out that Sarah probably would not have gotten credit for her 3-3s under COP, so it wouldn't have mattered that her skate was the most technically demanding because under COP she would not have lived up to those demands. However, many people have also pointed out that Sarah obviously would have structured her program much differently if she had been skating to COP rules so it is really impossible to say how her skating would hold up.

If Sarah skated that exact program in Vancouver, my wild guess is that she would most definitely would have lost to Yuna and Mao. Yuna's brilliant 3 lutz-3 toe and her high GOES on the rest of her jumps would have more than enough to defeat Sarah, whose jumps would have been downgraded. Mao's 3a probably would have been enough to defeat her too.

But of course, Sarah would not have skated that program in Vancouver. She would have put her program together quite differently. So who knows?

p.s. ITA that the men's skating at Vancouver was disappointing compared to Yagudin and even Plush in 2002, regardless of how those skates would hold up to COP.

But if Dai had been clean and won he would have definitely rivaled Yagudin for my favorite men's GM winner since I started watching Olympic skating in '92. So, I'm not as fussed about the supposed deterioration of men's skating as others are. I think the Japanese men will have something to say about that.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Lololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!( laughing at the idea of awarding a facebook medal!)

I'll bet by now Plush has the event more in perspective, because honestly what he accomplished in Vancouver was an amazing achievement. If he'd stuck with his "I'll be happy with any color medal, even bronze would give me one of each" comments, we would see only the amazing feat he accomplished. Also, I like Evan's personality- different strokes and all that.

Ah ok lets say then that Lysacek was 1.3 points (SP and LP combined) more intelligent than Plushenko and won fair and square. Because he beated a non intelligent, mediocre Plushenko-half the skater he used to be- by this margin. I had not seen that perspective of the outcome:hb:

Well, it's sorta true. Plushenko wasn't the skater he used to be, didn't tailor his programs to COP and had a weak skate (FOR HIM, not in general). If he had demonstrated a better understanding of COP or had a stronger skate, he would've won. That's a tribute to his abilities. If he had demonstrated class after the outcome and been proud of his stellar achievement (three Olympic medals in three games), people wouldn't feel the need to bring him down a little.
 

gsrossano

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 11, 2006
if it goes for me, I have survived and forgot Vancouver already :) . To answer your first question the calculations according to cop experts of facebook :hb:(new emoticon yey!)

1. Plushenko - 257.4, 2. Lysacek - 255.9 3. Takahashi - 251.6.

Using all the marks and the new SoV, but all other rules from 2009/10 I come up with

Plushenko 258.58 (1, 2)
Lysacek 257.43 (3,1)
Takahashi 254.37 (2,4)
Lambiel 249.92 (4,3)
Chan 245.04 (7,5)
Weir 240.91 (6,6)
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Using all the marks and the new SoV, but all other rules from 2009/10 I come up with

Plushenko 258.58 (1, 2)
Lysacek 257.43 (3,1)
Takahashi 254.37 (2,4)
Lambiel 249.92 (4,3)
Chan 245.04 (7,5)
Weir 240.91 (6,6)

PCS still seeems to play a big role in determining the 4-6th places.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Well, it's sorta true. Plushenko wasn't the skater he used to be, didn't tailor his programs to COP and had a weak skate (FOR HIM, not in general). If he had demonstrated a better understanding of COP or had a stronger skate, he would've won. That's a tribute to his abilities. If he had demonstrated class after the outcome and been proud of his stellar achievement (three Olympic medals in three games), people wouldn't feel the need to bring him down a little.

So much of tailoring your skate to COP means no quad for most skaters. Like he could have not done a quad and did what the world champions of 2008 and 2009 did and what workd for them and also world champion for 2010. None of them had quads. He said he wanted to do quad jumps and that is really punished under COP. I don't think its a coincidence that skaters most seen as COP skaters don't have quads. So Plushenko tried to win the old way of winning and it almost worked.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
So much of tailoring your skate to COP means no quad for most skaters. Like he could have not done a quad and did what the world champions of 2008 and 2009 did and what workd for them and also world champion for 2010. None of them had quads. He said he wanted to do quad jumps and that is really punished under COP. I don't think its a coincidence that skaters most seen as COP skaters don't have quads. So Plushenko tried to win the old way of winning and it almost worked.

The idea that quad jumping is punished under COP is a myth. It's just that the noted quad jumpers (Verner, Plushenko, van de Perren, Joubert, Lambiel) suffer in other areas. So what they earn from the quad, they lose elsewhere.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The idea that quad jumping is punished under COP is a myth. It's just that the noted quad jumpers (Verner, Plushenko, van de Perren, Joubert, Lambiel) suffer in other areas. So what they earn from the quad, they lose elsewhere.

This is my point. If would make sense if all those people just went with triple jumps and focused on the other areas.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
The idea that quad jumping is punished under COP is a myth. It's just that the noted quad jumpers (Verner, Plushenko, van de Perren, Joubert, Lambiel) suffer in other areas. So what they earn from the quad, they lose elsewhere.
You mean no quad skaters dont suffer anywhere? Lysacek suffers in no area cause he is not quad jumper? I dont buy the whole Cop packet. Verner Vs Lambiel Vs Plush Vs Joub Vs Kvdp etc are completely different skaters each. A. Dimitriev said "Plushenko could have done Lysacek 's program with no sweat ", I m rephrasing here,but I m sure Plush could not have done a cop program like Taka's program or Abott 's. For Lysacek's I m not sure, maybe he could have , with triples and all and more efficient flapping, it could work.;) But he didnt anyway so there 's no point to speculate. And it is not like Abott suffers from the quad he tries. He can blow the program even without a quad. Or he can be perfect like nationals.
 
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