Would Plush have won if the new rules had been applied? | Golden Skate

Would Plush have won if the new rules had been applied?

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
As the men's Oly event was a close competition between Evan and Plush, I wonder if the result would have been different if the new rules had been applied (base value changes, UR rule changes, and GOE factoring changes).

Here the protocols.

SP
http://www.vancouver2010.com/olympi...nd-results/men-short-program_fsm010201uH.html

LP
http://www.vancouver2010.com/olympi...and-results/men-free-skating_fsm010101eh.html

Even without calculating, I could see that Plush would have earned more points in SP, but LP, not so sure without doing math.
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I saw a number on twitter that said 257 plusheno 255 Lysacek but I don't know how that can be factored because if in the long program the second step sequence is just graded on GOE so I don't know if it will ever be possible to know really. Like when people want to see if Plushenko in 2006 could beat Yagudin in 2002 or if Sarah Hughes would have beaten Kim Yu Na. There is just no way to ever know ever.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
This is one of those wonderful "what if' thoughts that engage us pleasurably in the off season, but really, no one can tell. Because if Plushenko and Lysacek skated head to head again with new rules, Lysacek would change his program to accommodate those rules. So maybe he would still win...or maybe he would trip, or maybe Plushenko would stumble on his quad. There's no way to know that. Still, it's fun to speculate. Let the games begin!
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Since the new rules, it is on facebook also Plush Evan and Takas new scores, but I hate speculation, I just escaped the asylum of frustration, why to do this to myself again?:scowl:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Plushy would have won if he had executed his jumps better.
Whether Evan won or a cleaner Plushy would have won - the CoP determined Dai's skating and what he showed on the ice wasn't as good.

I think the CoP showed that it is not about who shows fans the best and most elegant skating. It is only about who plays the CoP game the best.

I thouhgt Dai outskated and outperformed Evan and Plushy in Vancouver. It was nice to see him win in Torino.
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I'm also the one, who wishes a point system, which can give the titel to the best , most attractiv performance.
In Vancouver it was Daisuke's one. So, all the other speculation is just a part of the History.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
This is one of those wonderful "what if' thoughts that engage us pleasurably in the off season, but really, no one can tell. Because if Plushenko and Lysacek skated head to head again with new rules, Lysacek would change his program to accommodate those rules. So maybe he would still win...or maybe he would trip, or maybe Plushenko would stumble on his quad. There's no way to know that. Still, it's fun to speculate. Let the games begin!

Yes, this was what I've meant, the games! I have just begun to learn the whole set of new rules and excited to see so many dramatic changes. I thought it interesting to play them out with the famous performances that led to some controversy about the rules. Sorry if the thread question triggered pains in some fans. It was not meant to be the real, serious "if," but it's just that we can't see the new programs to apply the new rules to until the new season starts in fall.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Yes, this was what I've meant, the games! I have just begun to learn the whole set of new rules and excited to see so many dramatic changes. I thought it interesting to play them out with the famous performances that led to some controversy about the rules. Sorry if the thread question triggered pains in some fans. It was not meant to be the real, serious "if," but it's just that we can't see the new programs to apply the new rules to until the new season starts in fall.

if it goes for me, I have survived and forgot Vancouver already :) . To answer your first question the calculations according to cop experts of facebook :hb:(new emoticon yey!)

1. Plushenko - 257.4, 2. Lysacek - 255.9 3. Takahashi - 251.6.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
As the men's Oly event was a close competition between Evan and Plush, I wonder if the result would have been different if the new rules had been applied (base value changes, UR rule changes, and GOE factoring changes).

Well, I wonder if Plushenko had gotten even a silver medal, if his PCS in sp & fs would have been judged according to the rules? I also think that his jumps in fs should have had more
- GOE.

Unfortunately Takahashi had too many mistakes in fs, but still he would have deserved a silver medal, if Plushenko´s performance had been judged correctly. Takahashi had an excellent CoP-programme, especially compared to Plushenko. A skater who does not understand to have a CoP-programme in a CoP-competition, deserves no mercy, in my opinion.
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Not just Plushenko being judged according to the rules but every top skater. I mean Lysacek got 8's for performance exection! LOL!!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Not just Plushenko being judged according to the rules but every top skater. I mean Lysacek got 8's for performance exection! LOL!!


I am sure Plushy will be happy to accept another Gold medal from Facebook. :rolleye:
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I mentioned facebook because this is where it was calculated. If you bother calculate it, I ll mention you next time.

Well, I wonder if Plushenko had gotten even a silver medal, if his PCS in sp & fs would have been judged according to the rules? I also think that his jumps in fs should have had more
- GOE.

"I wonder" if Lysacek should have been first with right pcs and edge call and deduction on 2nd axel. In sp he didn't deserve being so close to either Plush nor Taka and Taka should have been first there. Lysacek should have won just the LP, foolstop. But he was promoted as the 8th wonder of artistic skater with great jumps. You see how easy it is for ALL ubers to wonder? But there is no reason to wonder, it is done now.
I think it was better when I was quiet.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Lest we forget, Dai LP was 8 or 10 points lower than Patrick Chan. Suddenly people with faulty memory thought he was the best in Vancouver? Really?
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
if it goes for me, I have survived and forgot Vancouver already :) . To answer your first question the calculations according to cop experts of facebook :hb:(new emoticon yey!)

1. Plushenko - 257.4, 2. Lysacek - 255.9 3. Takahashi - 251.6.

Oh, thanks! Anyone knows the breakdowns?

My intuitive thought was that it's the new GOE factoring, not the quads, that will make the biggest difference between the two (given that both skaters did not have DGed jumps).

Just looking at the LP protocol, Lysacek's GOEs on 3 jumps except for 3As and on 2A will be reduced from 5.2 to 3.48. Plush's for those elements will be reduced from 3 to 1.9. So the score difference in these elements will be reduced from 2.20 to 1.59. Not as big as I imagined (I could be miscalculating though; it's very late at night here). But their scores were so close in the first place that such small changes may change the overall results.

Perhaps Oda and Yuna who get the biggest GOEs from triple jumps and 2A may be affected more by the new system (the relative impact of GOEs to the overall scores of these jumps will reduce).
 
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PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
If the new rules were in place, Ilia Kulik's performance would have scored higher than Peggy Flemming's. :biggrin:
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Heh. I think Lysacek would've tailored his performance better to the new rules and still would've come out ahead. I also think Weir would've beat Chan.
 

princess9

On the Ice
Joined
May 1, 2010
Well, no one asked this question but Yagudin would still win gold with his Salt Lake performances under CoP or any system because he had everything it takes. Plus points for handsome and very masculine!:biggrin: He's so much more a complete skater than the three from Vancouver. In Salt Lake Evan would have won pewter. Oh, forgot he actually was in fact fourth!

I have forgiven the Plush One for his outbursts. He's so gutsy and he used to be much better. Sigh. Still, one has to admire the effort and the resolve. 3 medals in three Olympics won't likely occur again.:bow:
 
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Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I agree with you, princess.
Who cares of Plush if we can have a much better memory of Yagudin's performances and sportmanship?
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Well, no one asked this question but Yagudin would still win gold with his Salt Lake performances under CoP or any system because he had everything it takes. Plus points for handsome and very masculine!:biggrin: He's so much more a complete skater than the three from Vancouver. In Salt Lake Evan would have won pewter. Oh, forgot he actually was in fact fourth!

Lysacek was not in Salt Lake City Olympics, LOL... Have you forgotten that Yagudin was 5th in his first Olympics, not even worth a pewter?

About Yagudin, he would not have won with his SLC performances in Vancouver. Not with his spins and level one footwork! Was it one triple axel that Yagudin did not even do in his freeskate?
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Heh. I think Lysacek would've tailored his performance better to the new rules and still would've come out ahead. I also think Weir would've beat Chan.

It is very true that Lysaceks performance was all about gaining the points to win-probably why it lacked any personality-so many jumps after the halfway point and all that stuff. He was always very busy and personality free and in any system that skate would be about points.
 
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