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Thread: What country can lay claim to best male singles dynasty?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ...

    Panin won silver in the 1903 World Championships. losing to Ulrich Salchow. But he refused to compete in any more ISU events because of those lyin', cheatin', conivin' Swedish judges.
    I thought the silver in 1903 went to the Brit, Madge Sayer -- the next year, women were banned, and in 1905, the ladies' event was born.

    I'm not sure the U.S. has much of a "dynasty" anymore, as an American man as World or Oly champ used to be a common occurrence, but has not been so common since 1990.

  2. #17
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    Scott Hamilton mentioned on NBC Olympic broadcast something about US male skaters, which I find really impressive: Every reigning US World Champion has won at the Olympics the gold medal.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhonya View Post
    I would emphasize rather the quality of skaters than quantity of them, so I´d say Russia / Soviet Union.
    Which includes the Ukraine, No?
    It's like saying line up the American Men with the Canadian Men. No?

    Why is this topic so important?? What's wrong with liking gifted skaters from wherever and regardless if they have an OGM or not???

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    I thought the silver in 1903 went to the Brit, Madge Sayer -- the next year, women were banned, and in 1905, the ladies' event was born.
    Madge Syers won the silver in 1902, and it wasn't until 1906 that she could compete in a Ladies' event. She won the gold medal in 1906 and 1907, and didn't compete after that.

  5. #20
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Scott Hamilton mentioned on NBC Olympic broadcast something about US male skaters, which I find really impressive: Every reigning US World Champion has won at the Olympics the gold medal.
    Is that so? Funky. Not that one should read too much into these precedents...

    Why is this topic so important?? What's wrong with liking gifted skaters from wherever and regardless if they have an OGM or not???
    The original question is why doesn't Canada have more of a tradition of golden ladies when they have had so many top men.
    I think it's an interesting question. And you could ask the same thing about Russia - Before Irina and Maria Butyrskaya who were the great Russian lady skaters? (that'd be before my time so I don't know off the top of my head.) And will they have another GM contender anytime soon?

    It's a good question. With such a tradition of great coaches and great men skaters, why don't the Canadians and the Russians have more great lady skaters?

    I guess Russian skating is in the doldrums all around for the moment. If it hadn't been for Plush coming back...

    Maybe the Russian men hit their peak at the same time as the women with Irina and Maria, and there is really no difference, I dunno.

    But it's interesting that a country that produced so many amazing gymnasts and ballet dancers hasn't produced more amazing lady figure skaters.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Is that so? Funky. Not that one should read too much into these precedents...
    Yes, one should not read too much into these precedents, but they still are interesting and this one also impressive:

    US reigning World champions who won the gold at the Olympics
    Richard Button 1952 (also got an Olympic gold medal in 1948)
    Hayes A. Jenkins 1956
    David Jenkins 1960
    Scott Hamilton 1984
    Evan Lysacek 2010

    Interesting is also the jinx that no reigning World champion won the Olympic gold after Scott Hamilton did in 1984, only Lysacek did beat that jinx in 2010.

    Other US World champions have been

    Tim Wood
    Charles Tickner
    Brian Boitano (also an Olympic gold medalist)
    Todd Eldredge

    All in all I would say that USA is the leading dynasty in men´s skating with

    6 different Olympic champions
    9 different World champions
    Last edited by Jaana; 05-21-2010 at 03:24 AM.

  7. #22
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    The original question is why doesn't Canada have more of a tradition of golden ladies when they have had so many top men.
    I think it's an interesting question. And you could ask the same thing about Russia - Before Irina and Maria Butyrskaya who were the great Russian lady skaters? (that'd be before my time so I don't know off the top of my head.) And will they have another GM contender anytime soon?.
    Before Irina and Maria, there were Vodorezova (5th in 82, 3rd in 83), Ivanova (2nd in 85, 4th in 86, 5th in 87 & Kondrashova (5th in 83, 2nd in 84, 4th in 85, 7th in 86,9th in 87) & Lebedeva (5th in 1989)and Markova (5th in 1995) All placings at Worlds.

    There are a bunch of very talented younger girls that are up and coming in Russia, and I expect to see one or more of them on the podium at Sochi.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Before Irina and Maria, there were Vodorezova (5th in 82, 3rd in 83), Ivanova (2nd in 85, 4th in 86, 5th in 87 & Kondrashova (5th in 83, 2nd in 84, 4th in 85, 7th in 86,9th in 87) & Lebedeva (5th in 1989)and Markova (5th in 1995) All placings at Worlds.

    .
    Very true - but the placements you cite for Russian Ladies would be considered a failure by US standards.

    I agree with Layfan - and always wondered why USA produced such beautiful and elegant Lady skaters and the Russians did not. Heck, even when we think of "baby ballerinas" on ice it is mostly USA Ladies that come to mind.

    Perhaps one or two of these highly touted Russian girls will become world class after they grow up.
    But the competition now is tougher than ever and winning a European championship does not get a skater as many bonus points as in years past.

  9. #24
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    The accepted wisdom used to be that, in the days of the Soviet sports system, if a skater showed promise, he or she was funneled into the Soviet specialties of pairs and ice dancing. So the Soviets did have women skaters who were giants in the field, notably Rodnina (10 world golds, 3 OGMs), Gordeyeva (2 OGMs, several world golds), Irina Pakhomova, Marina Klimova, and so on. The "lesser" skaters went to singles skating. It was only around the 1990s that this formulation changed. Ironically, the first "Soviet-orbit" singles skaters were both Ukrainian, Baiul and Petrenko. After Petrenko, Russian men owned the singles title at the Olympics until this year with Lysacek. For consistency--1992–2006--that's a pretty good record. The American dominance of Worlds and Olympics has been over a longer period of time, of course. So you could argue it both ways, and I'd certainly throw the Canadians in the mix, especially because Browning and Stojko especially have so many world titles and have been such a strong influence on men's skating in general, both as amateurs and as pros. They've also brought in a fan base that has made skating more viable in the West, at least until recently.

    Interesting point about which American male world titlists did and did not win an Olympics. If I'm not mistaken, there were no Russian world champions except the Olympians mentioned--and not all of the OGM winners won Worlds as well, I think. (I think Urmanov didn't, for example. Did Petrenko? I think not, but can't recall for sure.)
    Last edited by Olympia; 05-21-2010 at 10:28 AM.

  10. #25
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Other US World champions have been

    Tim Wood
    Charles Tickner
    Brian Boitano (also an Olympic gold medalist)
    Todd Eldredge
    Tim Wood was the ultimate wuzrobbed skater. At the 1968 Olympics he got silver instead of gold because one of the judges accidentally held up the wrong card. The judge tried to change it, but too late.

    Here is an interesting article from Sports Illustrated about 1970 U.S. Nationals. Wood, the technician and master of school figures (he called himself "the human compass," but I think he meant "the human gyroscope" ) won the championship over the artistic free skater John Misha Petkevich.

    In the ladies, Janet Lynn had to hold off the latest Carlo Fassi protege, Julie Lynn Holmes (no relation to Janet Lynn Nowicki ). As usual, Fassi was accused of cheating -- this time by copying Janet Lynn's patented hand positions.

    As Janet Lynn's coach (Slavka Kohout, once wife of Dick Button) put it,

    Fassi is having Julie copy the position of Janet's hands," she charged. "How can she do it—it's a matter of integrity! We've worked six months to develop those original hand placements. We skate after Julie in the championship and now it will look as if we have copied her."
    I'm tellin' ya, there's just no integrity in figure skating any more!

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...36/1/index.htm

    Janet's hands:

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/95/26...d0b547f5e1.jpg
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-21-2010 at 11:32 AM.

  11. #26
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    Here are Mirai Alien Nagasu's new hand positions for next season:

    http://www.spockonspock.com/img/spoc...pock-hands.jpg
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-21-2010 at 04:36 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Interesting point about which American male world titlists did and did not win an Olympics. If I'm not mistaken, there were no Russian world champions except the Olympians mentioned--and not all of the OGM winners won Worlds as well, I think. (I think Urmanov didn't, for example. Did Petrenko? I think not, but can't recall for sure.)
    You cannot count Petrenko among Russian Olympic gold medalists, because he is Ukrainian. Russia has 4 Olympic gold medalists. Urmanov and Kulik did not win WC, although Kulik won a silver medal and Urmanov a bronze (or more than one?). Plushenko was a reigning WC and did not win the OG gold in that Olympics.

    I have understood that if a Russian skater did not learn a triple axel, he was pushed towards pairs skating. If he generally was not good in jumping, he became an ice dancer...
    Last edited by Jaana; 05-21-2010 at 01:00 PM.

  13. #28
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Petrenko is Ukrainian but when he competed and won his medal he was competing for Unified Team.

    And the nationalism when it comes to fs is the most boring thing ever, like kindergarten we used to claim who had the best color pen box.

  14. #29
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    I'd say Russia/Soviet Union, easily, with USA 2nd and Canada 3rd.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 05-21-2010 at 05:07 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I'd say Russia/Soviet Union, easily, with USA 2nd and Canada 3rd.
    Since the World Figure Skating Championships resumed after WW2 in 1947 here is how the USA and Russian Men have done in the medal count.

    USA ............................23 Gold, 18 Silver, 18 Bronze........Total 59 medals

    USSR/Unified/Russia......11 Gold, 10 Silver, 8 Bronze.........Total 29 medals.

    I don't connsider the Russians to have been the innovators in singles skating - and they certainly can't approach USA Men in Worlds Medals (or Olympic medals).

    I fail to see how they have dominated anything but a decade when they indeed came close but did not equal the domination of USA Men in the 50's.

    The Soviet/Unified/Russian record in Pairs and Dance is just something that may never be equaled again. It is phenominal as is the Worlds and Olympic medal history of USA Ladies.

    Skating is interesting these days - and much more of a World sport.
    Asian skaters have bumped USA Ladies and Russian Pairs from dominance.

    Dance is stronger in N. America than before. Future competitions should be fun and maybe even less Nationalistic between N. America and Europe.

    Not sure if I can say the same for the Asians - but they are newer and I say let them have their fun.

    Japanese fans and now Korean fans know what it is like to have an Ice Queen. I am sure they will work hard to build a tradition of excellence.
    Last edited by janetfan; 05-21-2010 at 05:49 PM.

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