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Thread: The Kween and the Queen

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by YunaBliss View Post
    I disagree. I am not talking about BODIES OF WORK or LONGEVITY And neither are figure skating experts.

    I am talking about the way Yuna is DOMINATING the rest of the field, including Mao. I just saw 2009 Skate America again, and Scott Hamilton noted half-jokingly that "if anybody comes within 30 points of Yuna, they should feel proud."

    Such domination has been very rare in any sport, and it is clear that Yuna is in a class of her own at the moment. Just like MJ or Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps.

    No one can refute Michelle Kwan's legacy, but was she so DOMINATE during her competitive career? I am not sure.
    Oh dear.... YunaBliss, please take a chill pill T_T I'm a Yu-na fan, but some of your comments are way out of hand.

    Yes, Michelle certainly dominated during her time MORE SO than Yu-na I'd say. She's given so many absolutely legendary performances to us that will be remembered always in figure skating; "Salome" as a 15 year old, "Lyra Angelica" in 1998, "Song of the Black Swan," "Red Violin".. the list could go on and on. Yes, Michelle did not always win gold when she skated, BUT when she did, it was in an absolutely spectacular fashion. And get this; Yu-na doesn't always win gold either -_- In fact, I do recall Mao beat her just this March... :P

    MK was THE face of figure skating during her time. She defined the rules and set the standard. And yes, she dominated the field like no other, to the point that some complained that she was overshadowing everyone else too much and she wasn't giving newer skaters their time to shine :P

  2. #152
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    Oh dear indeed. ~~~~~ In this day of age, it's rare for a ladies skater to win even two world medals, yet Michelle managed to win five of them. Enough said.

  3. #153
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    You are still missing my point. I am talking about how Yuna wins. The point differential. The difference between her and the 2nd place, the 3rd place, and the rest of the competition.

    Granted, during Kwan's reign, such point system did not exist, so we cannot compare. And I am not sure Kwan won her medals by such a large margin. In any event, I am not here to discredit Kwan.

    My points is to defend the comparison to MJ I made earlier, and how certain people thought that was out of line, based on the "body of work" concept.

    But what I am talking about is the degree of dominance at the present moment in time. What we are seeing with Yuna is beating the next best in the world by 6-0,6-0,6-1 (if this was tennis) or finishing a whole 1 second or more ahead (if this 100 meter dash). That is why I think comparison to someone like MJ, who was so far better than his contemporary rivals, is a valid and sensible one. But given MJ's god-like status (I am his ultimate fan myself), I understand how that could be perceived as excessive.

    So I will just say, IMO, Yuna = Usain Bolt of Figure Skating. Happy? ^^

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilith11 View Post
    Oh dear.... YunaBliss, please take a chill pill T_T I'm a Yu-na fan, but some of your comments are way out of hand.

    Yes, Michelle certainly dominated during her time MORE SO than Yu-na I'd say. She's given so many absolutely legendary performances to us that will be remembered always in figure skating; "Salome" as a 15 year old, "Lyra Angelica" in 1998, "Song of the Black Swan," "Red Violin".. the list could go on and on. Yes, Michelle did not always win gold when she skated, BUT when she did, it was in an absolutely spectacular fashion. And get this; Yu-na doesn't always win gold either -_- In fact, I do recall Mao beat her just this March... :P

    MK was THE face of figure skating during her time. She defined the rules and set the standard. And yes, she dominated the field like no other, to the point that some complained that she was overshadowing everyone else too much and she wasn't giving newer skaters their time to shine :P
    I just offered him a beer to chill out. Hahah!

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by YunaBliss View Post
    You are still missing my point. I am talking about how Yuna wins. The point differential. The difference between her and the 2nd place, the 3rd place, and the rest of the competition.

    Granted, during Kwan's reign, such point system did not exist, so we cannot compare. And I am not sure Kwan won her medals by such a large margin. In any event, I am not here to discredit Kwan.

    My points is to defend the comparison to MJ I made earlier, and how certain people thought that was out of line, based on the "body of work" concept.

    But what I am talking about is the degree of dominance at the present moment in time. What we are seeing with Yuna is beating the next best in the world by 6-0,6-0,6-1 (if this was tennis) or finishing a whole 1 second or more ahead (if this 100 meter dash). That is why I think comparison to someone like MJ, who was so far better than his contemporary rivals, is a valid and sensible one. But given MJ's god-like status (I am his ultimate fan myself), I understand how that could be perceived as excessive.

    So I will just say, IMO, Yuna = Usain Bolt of Figure Skating. Happy? ^^
    I would say in all of the years I have been watching skating that Peggy Fleming was the most dominant skater I ever saw. Not only was she the best free skater of her era but she was also great at the compulsary figures. Some skating experts have noted Yuna was the most heavily favored Olympic contender since Peggy.

    Carol Heiss was before my time but she was even more dominant than Peggy.

    Consider that Carol won 5 consecutive WC's and an Olympic Silver and Olympic Gold medal wrapped around that. IMO Michelle, Yuna, and whover follows will never duplicate the astonishing display of dominance shown by Carol Heiss. Truthfully - I don't think another will even come close.

    And let's not forget the skater whose title Yuna is borrowing - the original and greatest Queen of the Ice - Sonja Heinie. Consider Sonja's 3 OGM's and 9 WC's ........mind boggling.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I would say in all of the years I have been watching skating that Peggy Fleming was the most dominant skater I ever saw. Not only was she the best free skater of her era but she was also great at the compulsary figures. Some skating experts have noted Yuna was the most heavily favored Olympic contender since Peggy.

    Carol Heiss was before my time but she was even more dominant than Peggy.

    Consider that Carol won 5 consecutive WC's and an Olympic Silver and Olympic Gold medal wrapped around that. IMO Michelle, Yuna, and whover follows will never duplicate the astonishing display of dominance shown by Carol Heiss. Truthfully - I don't think another will even come close.

    And let's not forget the skater whose title Yuna is borrowing - the original and greatest Queen of the Ice - Sonja Heinie. Consider Sonja's 3 OGM's and 9 WC's ........mind boggling.
    Haha. Three skaters who, coincidentally, are in the same bracket as Yuna in USFSA's "greatest ever" poll. (Talk about a "Group of Death"!)

    But I won't even try to argue with you there. It's like in college basketball (my favorite sport until figure skating became my No.1 passion) - every time I say Coach K is the best coach of all time, someone inevitably mentions John Wooden - and his 10 national championships. ^^;

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan
    And let's not forget the skater whose title Yuna is borrowing - the original and greatest Queen of the Ice - Sonja Heinie. Consider Sonja's 3 OGM's and 9 WC's ........mind boggling.
    It is, however, not so easy to evaluate the strength of the competition when those glorious skaters of yesteryear were rattling off all those World Championships. In Sonia Henie's first world championship (1927), for instance, there were only four entries, two Norwegians and two German/Austrians. There were five judges -- three from Norway, one from Germany and one from Austria. Lo and behold, the Swedish skater (Henie) won and the Ausrtrian (Szabo, who herself won five Worlds) was second.

    In 1929 there were 6 entries, Sonia Henie from Norway, four Austrians, and one Belgian.

    Ulrich Salchow's record of ten World Championships also will never be matched. But again, in 1901 there were only 2 entries, Salchow (Sweden) and Fuchs (Austrian). The judging panel comprised 4 Swedes, 2 British and 1 German.

    The accomplishments of modern skaters came, IMHO, against longer odds.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It is, however, not so easy to evaluate the strength of the competition when those glorious skaters of yesteryear were rattling off all those World Championships. In Sonia Henie's first world championship (1927), for instance, there were only four entries, two Norwegians and two German/Austrians. There were five judges -- three from Norway, one from Germany and one from Austria. Lo and behold, the Swedish skater (Henie) won and the Ausrtrian (Szabo, who herself won five Worlds) was second.

    In 1929 there were 6 entries, Sonia Henie from Norway, four Austrians, and one Belgian.

    Ulrich Salchow's record of ten World Championships also will never be matched. But again, in 1901 there were only 2 entries, Salchow (Sweden) and Fuchs (Austrian). The judging panel comprised 4 Swedes, 2 British and 1 German.

    The accomplishments of modern skaters came, IMHO, against longer odds.
    Good points - but my real focus was on Carol Heiss. Can you explain away her "dominance" as easily?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Good points - but my real focus was on Carol Heiss. Can you explain away her "dominance" as easily?
    I am not sure. The question is the quality of the competition.

    On the men's side, in the 1950s (the world-wide "Pax America," after World War II and before Russia got the atom bomb), figure skating in Europe was in a shambles. The only competition U.S. men faced was each other. If you win the U.S. championship, you win worlds automatically. (From 1951 to 1958 U.S. men won both gold and silver at worlds, and swept the podium in 1952, 1955, and 1956.)

    For the ladies, it is not so clear. Carol Heiss' main international rival in the latter part of her career was Sophie Dijkstra (1964 Olympic champion). Dijkstra was a whiz at figures. Her free skating was athletic but not as good as Heiss'. Other international competitors were skaters like Ingrid Wendl, Hanna Walter and Ina Bauer(!)

    By the way, Carol Heiss was the first famous skater i ever saw perform (in the Ice Capades), and I thought she was amazing. I think she would have been at least as famous as Peggy Fleming if she had come along just a few years later, when televised sports became popular.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I am not sure. The question is the quality of the competition.

    On the men's side, in the 1950s (the world-wide "Pax America," after World War II and before Russia got the atom bomb), figure skating in Europe was in a shambles. The only competition U.S. men faced was each other. If you win the U.S. championship, you win worlds automatically. (From 1951 to 1958 U.S. men won both gold and silver at worlds, and swept the podium in 1952, 1955, and 1956.)

    For the ladies, it is not so clear. Carol Heiss' main international rival in the latter part of her career was Sophie Dijkstra (1964 Olympic champion). Dijkstra was a whiz at figures. Her free skating was athletic but not as good as Heiss'. Other international competitors were skaters like Ingrid Wendl, Hanna Walter and Ina Bauer(!)

    By the way, Carol Heiss was the first famous skater i ever saw perform (in the Ice Capades), and I thought she was amazing. I think she would have been at least as famous as Peggy Fleming if she had come along just a few years later, when televised sports became popular.
    Thanks for such an interesting reply. If not for Tenley Albight - Carol would have won back to back OGM's and more WC's. Most think had Carol continued she could have won another OGM in 1964.

    It was not quite as easy as you presented it - there were serious competitors, especially from the Canadians. Obviously the second world war and the distruption it cause in all of European societal and cultural things had a major impact. But Button was a phenom - he redefined the sport as we know it. There was no European skater before - or of his era - that skated like he did and as long as the judging was fair he probably would have won.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownfox View Post
    Are we talking about Michael Jordan? Remember he retired from 1994 and 1995. He played again because baseball didn't work for him, plus his father's death. Jordan wasn't perfect. He depended on Jackson's coaching ability, Pippen, and the rest of the team. He had to face the Bad Boys of Detroit before he became a champion. Some say he was an average passer and a shooter.
    Yeah, he retired then returned and rose to the top again, he perfect the fadeaway after he returned. (his brief stay at baseball was good for baseball, everyone is sad about his father). Who said MJ was perfect, just that kyn is not the MJ of basketball. Please save the he depended on Pippen and the rest of the team talk. Basketball is a team sport everyone knows that. If yu want to talk about supporting cast for MJ, then we too can talk about the supporting team for kyn. Anyway part of Jordan's greatness include that he was willing to return and stayed until he was beat by the next generation's great. That is good for the sports. So until kyn is willing to return and compete until she is beat off the podium by the next generation skating great, she can not be called the Mj of skating.

    BTW, who cares whether MJ's individual skill element is the tops or not, or even if he is just an average passer and shooter, which I completely disagree. Oh well, many consider ynk's spiral and spin postiitons is average at best. Some consider her triple loop skills very inferior too.
    Last edited by rtureck; 06-05-2010 at 04:05 PM.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by rtureck View Post
    Yeah, he retired then returned and rose to the top again, he perfect the fadeaway after he returnedc. (his brief stay at baseball was good for baseball, everyone is sad about his father). Who said MJ was perfect, just that kyn is not the MJ of basketball. Please save the he depended on Pippen and the rest of the team talk. Basketball is a team sport everyone knows that. If yu want to talk about supporting cast for MJ, then we too can talk about the supporting team for kyn. Anyway part of Jordan's greatness include that he was willing to return and stayed until he was beat by the next generation's great. That is good for the sports. So until kyn is willing to return and compete until she is beat off the podium by the next generation skating great, she can not be called the Mj of skating.

    BTW, who cares whether MJ's individual skill element is the tops or not, or he is just an average passer and shooter. Oh well, many consider ynk's spiral and spin postiitons less than average. Some consider her triple loop skills very inferior too.
    yes, i'm sure you'd love to see that. i hope she proves you wrong and continues to make your blood boil

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    and to be clear, i do not think Yuna is the MJ of FS or any other mythical figure of greatness but just pointing out your tendency to rain down on any yunalover's parade

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figga View Post
    yes, i'm sure you'd love to see that. i hope she proves you wrong and continues to make your blood boil

    I too love to see ynk continues to compete, it is good for the sports. I never said she won't continue to compete, my speculoation is that she won't. All I said is she can't be called the MJ of skating until she returns and compete till the next generation skater(s) beat her off the podium. My blood is just fine, since I have a ton of Kween's skating programs on video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Figga View Post
    and to be clear, i do not think Yuna is the MJ of FS or any other mythical figure of greatness......
    I never said you Figga kyn fan said that kyn is the MJ of skating, I was talking about and to someone else. And if you don't think kyn in her current status is MJ of skating, then we both agree
    Last edited by rtureck; 06-05-2010 at 04:25 PM.

  15. #165
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    Michelle Hand Down

    Michelle transformed figure skating. Her artistry remains at a level no other women's figure skater has reached. As another poster stated , it was "profound." That was becaise Lori Nichols taught her the importance of relating to and feeling the music. That is also why she connected to the audiences so well. Her passion for her art and her domination of the sport was obvious to all. There has been no other skater since, that has done that. Mirai may come closest to that combination of ability, passion and artistry. That is my hope.

    Yu Na will never get there. I believe that is partly cultural. A display of one's emotions in public is not an Asian charcteristic. Their concept of artistry is different than ours. I also think she is essentially a more reserved person regardless of cultural differences. I don't find her warm and fuzzy. One of the reasons I loved Chen Lu's performance so many years ago was because she used Chinese music and her choreography reflected her cultural heritage. It was breathtaking. She clearly related to it and the result was one of the most beautiful performances in figure skating history.

    Michelle, in her prime, was simply without peer and that has not changed.

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