The Kween and the Queen | Page 13 | Golden Skate

The Kween and the Queen

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
About innovation, I think that as a sport matures and solidifies there is less and less opportunity for anyone to invent a totally unique move that has never been seen before.

In show skating, yes. But as a sport, we do not expect a baseball player to invent a new way of hitting a home run (standing on his head, perhaps?) Just hit the home run in the usual way and win the game.

The most recent ways to hit more home runs has had mixed results. They built new stadiums without such deep outfields - and then certain players began taking steroids.

The balls can also be made more lively and let's not forget my favorite - the ol' cork in bat trick.

Strike zones have been modified and are smaller than they used to be. Dwight Godden's famous high fastball would never get a strike call these days.
I lost interest a while ago despite the success of the Phillies. I miss the hit and run, base stealing and even the ground ball sacrifice.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
About innovation, I think that as a sport matures and solidifies there is less and less opportunity for anyone to invent a totally unique move that has never been seen before.

In show skating, yes. But as a sport, we do not expect a baseball player to invent a new way of hitting a home run (standing on his head, perhaps?) Just hit the home run in the usual way and win the game.

Not forgetting the required elements and rules and regulations in today's COP are actually huge deterrents to any innovations that was once possible.

To refresh the sport, I much prefer if ISU simply pick one piece of music or theme per each competition for the final group (8 skaters), where skater and the team can do do what ever they want with it, including choreography, choice of elements to include, and editing of the same or different version of the music.

This way, at least leaves room to be innovative and make it very interesting to compare the strength and weakness of the skaters (and their teams)
 
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brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
You left out this which I think stands as one of the most memorable programs and performances in skating history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM&NR=1

Wasn't it after seeing Michelle's '98 programs that Yuna decided she wanted to be like Michelle? :)

I confess that it was a breathtaking performance. I believe it was one of the Michelle's Olympics performances that made Yuna become like Michelle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=M2kjVptq7-A&feature=related
Yuna was nowhere near what she did at the Worlds but look at the reactions from the crowd. I could feel her losing confidence and focus after she popped the Lutz. I even knew she would fail the Salchow even before she attempted it.

I could only imagine how insanely wild the audience would have gone if the performance at the GPF were like the one at the Worlds or Olympics.
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Believe it or not, I hadn't watched that Lyra Angelica again until recently. I guess I was so sad about the Olympic results that I didn't want to see the Olympic version again, but it never occurred to me to look at the Nationals version. What an amazing performance, both technically and artistically. The thing that strikes me is how complex the choreography is. She never just skates from move to move. How could that get just a silver?
I heard many people saying that the Nationals version was much better than the Olympics version. Maybe Michelle could have captured that gold if Tara hadn't dashed toward the audience after finishing her program?

Brian, isn't it interesting to see how skating has progressed through the years. Your comment about Kristi's jumps is telling, though: she actually had a triple-triple in her Olympic program, as I recall, and that didn't happen again until Tara. So she was ahead of her time, and she retained her triples well into her pro career (and may have them still, for all I know).
Yes, indeed. No matter what kind legacy and influence Sonja has in FS history, no one will claim that her staking is better than Peggy's. Even though a part of reason for the downturn of FS in the US was emergences of others popular disciplines such as ice hockey, snowboard and ski, having no skaters better than Michelle in the mind of general public must have played a decisive role IMO. Same thing might happen when Tiger quits and no one better than him comes along soon enough. It will be like going back to an old flip phone after losing an iPhone.

Like you, I was not as impressed with Dorothy as an artist at the time she competed. It was only in her pro years that she became interesting to watch for me. Peggy was always amazing to me, and she was cutting-edge for her time. Did you notice her spread-eagle into the double axel? I think that would have counted as a difficult jump entrance even today.

Yes I have noticed that too. It was simply exquisite. It must have definitely influenced Yuna.
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Brianjw - Thanks for clip of Peggy. Interesting she wore a Chartreuse dress and skated to French Opera in Grenoble. How could she lose? :) :laugh: Seriously, she was the best in her era. As for her country, she was the only athlete to win a god medal for the USA.

Comparing her to Yuna, is difficult because of different eras. It's like comparing Henie to Asada. :eek:

Yes it will be very difficult to compare them in terms or artistry, legacy or influence. However, it will be as clear as looking through a crystal to see Asada's skating is way better than Henie's.
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
^ Is her skating better, or does she just do more revolutions on her jumps?

But Mao is much more than just a jumper; she has excellent flow and edges, has good speed, has that soft, ethereal quality to her skating that just makes her unique, has the spins and spirals, the extensions, carriage, posture, stroking, etc, etc.... XD
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Interesting theory. Something certainly can be said about the era's of a sport, but I really don't lay it on to invidual athletes.

the original sport of skating was racing followed by barrel jumping, and at one point they reached adding another barrel which would be the last one. No one came forward to jump that set of barrels. The Sport died.
I don't think we've reached that point in Figure Skating yet. At some point there will be a Quint, but a Sext will kill the Sport?
I don't think either. Imagine the current skaters' skating is not any better than Henie's. Granted, it would be more and more difficult to outperform the current best performance as skaters push to the boundaries of gravitational force and physical limitation. But we still have something else we could resort to such as quality of skating, artistry, connection with audience, creative movements or positions and etc.



All Sports are thrilling during their eras.
No one will argue about that.

There are improvements in equipment; in attire; in music; in makeup, etc. as well as in technical throughout the years. However, contributions to a Sport are always welcomed. I would suggest that Henie brought in the public, Albright brought in balletic line, Lynne brought in emotion. Do you not think these attributes count?
Yes of course and they were good for the Sports.

We seem now to be going overboard for Yuna and Mao, and Indeed we should. They are fine examples of excellent figure skating, but what have they brought to the Sport?

It is too early to determine what Yuna has brought to the Sport, IMO. Time will tell. Maybe Yuna's legacy will end up being lesser of Michelle's. But I think Yuna's performances in terms of pure skating quality and athletism are the best ever in Ladies FS history.
 
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aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Understood. Show me some youtube that foreign commentators gushing over Michelle.

I'm gonna assume you were being sarcastic/didn't think she had any, but ...
Okay! :)

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6U6HT82Scg
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vdqVRmnWDE
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKc5i91JiS0&feature=related
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTbJj7je5mM
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vveb9RTftM
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=626kHy4Jv14
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88xpDflZ-lU
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm41rHb14I4
9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTneJ41jqf8
10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKkR3QYYLok
11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHEf22tIclE
12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5wbZhgug9s
13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rk52JMObJs
(Note for #13: @2:56, "That program had everything; energy, the jumps, the spins ... just the perfect package! Textbook skating by Michelle Kwan." <-- Kind of what has been said about Yuna, no?)

---------------

*Note: Mostly British Eurosport/CBC commentators because my main language is English. There are Chinese and Japanese videos in there (I asked a friend about the Japanese) and I didn't think it was fair for me to put other language commentaries in there without knowing what they were saying.

**But you asked for foreign commentators, so here they are.
:biggrin:

***
And yes, Great Britain and Canada count as a foreign countries (Well, for me at least).

---------------

Anyway, back to studying for finals! :sheesh:
Might post more later, but it's a not a guarantee.
 
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demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
^^Thanks for posting a trip down Kween lane. Being a Kwan fan what a treat to see her past skating videos and reminiscence. She was (still) a wonderful skater. Looking forward to seeing her skate in Yuna's show.
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
I would put Michelle's Song of the Black Swan at 2001 Worlds up as equal, at least, to Yu Na's performances in terms of difficulty and her EOE at 1998 World Pro as superior in terms of skating quality. There many other MK performances that, in my opinion, rank at least equal to Yu Na's. This is not to take anything away from Yu Na. She is the only one to rise to MK's level of overall ability since Michelle first succeeded on the World stage in 1996. They truly are the Queen and the Kween.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzHZtUPDIVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS3FntkFAyU

Oddly enough, Song of the Black Swan looked superior than East of Eden to me in terms of skating quality. I agree that EOE is superior than SOTBS in terms of artistry. No wonder Michelle is the best ever in the eyes of many die-hard fans, even after more than a decade later.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Okay! :)

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6U6HT82Scg
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vdqVRmnWDE
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKc5i91JiS0&feature=related
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTbJj7je5mM
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vveb9RTftM
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=626kHy4Jv14
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88xpDflZ-lU
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm41rHb14I4
9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTneJ41jqf8
10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKkR3QYYLok
11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHEf22tIclE
12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5wbZhgug9s
13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rk52JMObJs
(Note for #13: @2:56, "That program had everything; energy, the jumps, the spins ... just the perfect package! Textbook skating by Michelle Kwan." <-- Kind of what has been said about Yuna, no?)

---------------

*Note: Mostly British Eurosport/CBC commentators because my main language is English. There are Chinese and Japanese videos in there (I asked a friend about the Japanese) and I didn't think it was fair for me to put other language commentaries in there without knowing what they were saying.

**But you asked for foreign commentators, so here they are.
:biggrin:

***
And yes, Great Britain and Canada count as a foreign countries (Well, for me at least).

---------------

Anyway, back to studying for finals! :sheesh:
Might post more later, but it's a not a guarantee.

i knew a kwanfan would come through.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
But Mao is much more than just a jumper; she has excellent flow and edges, has good speed, has that soft, ethereal quality to her skating that just makes her unique, has the spins and spirals, the extensions, carriage, posture, stroking, etc, etc.... XD

lets not forget the advancements in the rinks and equipment. Skate blades are better designed, they no longer skate outdoors, crosstraining, athletic clothing... Again it is unfair to compare one generation to another without taking outside factors into consideration.

rules have also changed drastically sine Henie took the ice.
 

SkatingAnalyst

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Very Good Job

I'm gonna assume you were being sarcastic/didn't think she had any, but ...
Okay! :)

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6U6HT82Scg
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vdqVRmnWDE
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKc5i91JiS0&feature=related
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTbJj7je5mM
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vveb9RTftM
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=626kHy4Jv14
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88xpDflZ-lU
8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm41rHb14I4
9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTneJ41jqf8
10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKkR3QYYLok
11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHEf22tIclE
12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5wbZhgug9s
13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rk52JMObJs
(Note for #13: @2:56, "That program had everything; energy, the jumps, the spins ... just the perfect package! Textbook skating by Michelle Kwan." <-- Kind of what has been said about Yuna, no?)

---------------

*Note: Mostly British Eurosport/CBC commentators because my main language is English. There are Chinese and Japanese videos in there (I asked a friend about the Japanese) and I didn't think it was fair for me to put other language commentaries in there without knowing what they were saying.

**But you asked for foreign commentators, so here they are.
:biggrin:

***
And yes, Great Britain and Canada count as a foreign countries (Well, for me at least).

---------------

Anyway, back to studying for finals! :sheesh:
Might post more later, but it's a not a guarantee.
Very good job aftertherain. Yes, Eurosport counts as foreign commentators.
I like younger Michelle much better than later years.
I must say GOE is as good as Yuna but lacks WOW factors than Yuna.

Again, Thank you for your effort... you're a real MK fan...spending so much time to prove it.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I also think it is hard and unnecessary to compare skaters across generations because of different rules, equipments, and other factors. The only real way to evaluate past skaters is by their legacy and the influence they have on the skating world. Sonja Henie is influential because she is a pioneer who paved the way for later generations.
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
i also think it is hard and unnecessary to compare skaters across generations because of different rules, equipments, and other factors. The only real way to evaluate past skaters is by their legacy and the influence they have on the skating world. Sonja henie is influential because she is a pioneer who paved the way for later generations.

ita :3
 

brianjyw

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Not forgetting the required elements and rules and regulations in today's COP are actually huge deterrents to any innovations that was once possible.

To refresh the sport, I much prefer if ISU simply pick one piece of music or theme per each competition for the final group (8 skaters), where skater and the team can do do what ever they want with it, including choreography, choice of elements to include, and editing of the same or different version of the music.

This way, at least leaves room to be innovative and make it very interesting to compare the strength and weakness of the skaters (and their teams)

It might be too stressful for skaters because some competitions are only a few weeks apart. The quality of skating under your proposal may become not good as we hope for due to time constraints.

What about each piece of music or theme per each season?
 
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