The Kween and the Queen

Mathman · Jun 10, 2010

prettykeys said:
It's kinda funny...I think we skating fans have become a little spoiled in recent years. When you look back at good skates from a long enough past, even a quality performance may lack some measure of audience connection. It's a strange experience for a newbie like me to look at a clip of, for example, Peggy Fleming or Dorothy Hamill--lovely, talented skaters, but there is an impersonal flatness that I'm not used to when I watch them. Modern skaters really try harder to engage the audience, and it shows.

What an interesting observation! Critics of the IJS claim the opposite -- that in modern programs the skaters must concentrate on wringing out each tenth of a point, leaving little opportunity for engaging the audience, compared to the oldies but goodies of by-gone eras.

janetfan · Jun 10, 2010

Figga said:
as Layfan points out, Sasha seems more refined but i like Mirai's speed/energy and she has a great looking 2A that covers a good distance

What is it about "Carmen" :think:

Here is a very young Yuna:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40clAD3Ae4g

and a very young Mao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm5xsi9Ypu0

and here is Mao again a little older:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfFDratp4_Q

Here is Michelle skating to the "Fate" music from Carmen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz9TAT9lAA0

The list goes on and on............and there will most likely be new "Carmen" programs this season. :biggrin:

janetfan · Jun 10, 2010

Mathman said:
What an interesting observation! Critics of the IJS claim the opposite -- that in modern programs the skaters must concentrate on wringing out each tenth of a point, leaving little opportunity for engaging the audience, compared to the oldies but goodies of by-gone eras.

We have also learned of a new artistic term in the CoP era - the "choreographed smile."

janetfan · Jun 10, 2010

Olympia said:
That reminds me of Yuka Sato's program one year at the pro competition at Landover. (Golly, I miss that competition!) She had worked up a program to "Afternoon of a Faun," which many consider to be Janet Lynn's signature piece. Turned out that Janet was present at the program! (She may even have been one of the judges; I can't remember.) The announcer said that Yuka, a modest person, was worried that Janet might be insulted at seeing her music used by someone else. She sent word to Janet that she would like her to think of it as a tribute. And indeed, Lynn was impressed. When a great skater references another great skater, it can be a moment to treasure for all involved, especially the audience.

Newer fans are enchanted by the artistry and grace of Yuna and Mao. And I am with them - they are both wonderful skaters.

Sometimes we hear N. Americans complain about the death of Pro skating.

It was probably done in by a number of factors and greed from TV producers was part of it.

But there was a time - and a skater named John Curry. He was an Olympic champion and for me the most "artistic skater" whoever laced up a pair of boots.

Yuka's pro version of "Afternoon of a Faun" was wonderful. So was Janet's version back in the early 70's.

Here is a clip of John Curry with Cathy Foulkes skating to "Afternoon of a Faun."
I post it just to show the possibilities of skating and artistry. IMO to this day John Curry has no equal when it comes to artistic skating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3wewU5xcXY

Does anyone know about Cathy Foulkes? I only know her as John Currry's professional skating partner. Isn't she wonderful :yes:

Olympia · Jun 10, 2010

Curry is wonderful as the Faun. He probably modeled his choreography on the original ballet piece--or at least from photographs of it--which I believe was danced by Nijinsky himself. Thanks for posting the link to that glorious piece.

Isn't it great how so many recent fans look at Yuka's version for the first time and are wowed by her? Her appeal and command of the ice have not diminished. I gather she's very popular among other skaters themselves, both for her warm personality and for the quality of her skating.

The interesting thing about pro skating was that many competitions, especially Landover, helped skaters push the envelope. A lot of pro skaters tried things they couldn't do as amateurs, and there was a good deal of inventive choreography. Particularly in pairs and ice dancing, skaters broke free of the limitations of competition. (In ice dance many types of lifts were forbidden, and pairs was so athletic that a slow, emotional piece would have gotten very low scores.) So we ended up with some gorgeous pieces by pairs such as Underhill and Martini, or by ice dancers such as Klimova and Ponomarenko--and Torvill and Dean, of course.

Tonichelle · Jun 10, 2010

janetfan said:
We have also learned of a new artistic term in the CoP era - the "choreographed smile."

Michelle Kwan had those in the 90s and 00s. It's not "new", it's always been part of skating.

Lilith11 · Jun 10, 2010

aftertherain said:
WHAAAAT? Dang. I was thankful that it was simple. It was quite elegant and beautiful. One of the most beautiful I've ever seen, IMO.

ITA But then again, there's always grumblers

Layfan · Jun 10, 2010

janetfan said:
Newer fans are enchanted by the artistry and grace of Yuna and Mao. And I am with them - they are both wonderful skaters.

Sometimes we hear N. Americans complain about the death of Pro skating.
It was probably done in by a number of factors and greed from TV producers was part of it.

But there was a time - and a skater named John Curry. He was an Olympic champion and for me the most "artistic skater" whoever laced up a pair of boots.

Yuka's pro version of "Afternoon of a Faun" was wonderful. So was Janet's version back in the early 70's.

Here is a clip of John Curry with Cathy Foulkes skating to "Afternoon of a Faun."
I post it just to show the possibilities of skating and artistry. IMO to this day John Curry has no equal when it comes to artistic skating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3wewU5xcXY

Does anyone know about Cathy Foulkes? I only know her as John Currry's professional skating partner. Isn't she wonderful :yes:

Oh my. All I can say is that is truly ART. Many skaters have been artistic but this piece is an actual work of art.

I makes me really rue there is not more professional skating. What if there were skating companies that had actual repertoire? Not just programs certain skaters perform repeatedly and then disappears once they retires but pieces that are meant to be performed generations later? It would be amazing to see newer skaters try this duet. I don't know who could do it justice. But it would be awesome to see someone give it a go.

I didn't know anything about Cathy Foulkes but she moves like a ballerina like no one I've ever seen, even Sasha.

Also, I just saw this when I was looking up Janet Lynn and Yuka Sato's Afternoon of a Faun and I'm posting it just for the heck of it. I'm sure some fans like Janetfan already know all about it but maybe newer one like me have never seen it. The commentator says John Curry choreographed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrR6...=C6363F0D42E80250&playnext_from=PL&playnext=4

Michelle Kwan had those in the 90s and 00s. It's not "new", it's always been part of skating

Indeed. And I never understand how this is supposed to be a criticism, according to some people. Skaters are supposed to be performing out there. It's not unreasonable to think they are going to smile or make other expressions for the performance's sake.

I never get when people say that Michelle Kwan's emotions were choreographed and that's supposed to be a criticism. Personally, I feel Michelle mostly honestly felt the passion she displayed. But I'm sure there were times when she had to compete and couldn't muster up the same passion for whatever reason ... I don't know, maybe she fought with her mom or something ... was she suppose to grimace the whole performance?

HalfTriple · Jun 10, 2010

Mathman said:
What an interesting observation! Critics of the IJS claim the opposite -- that in modern programs the skaters must concentrate on wringing out each tenth of a point, leaving little opportunity for engaging the audience, compared to the oldies but goodies of by-gone eras.

Prettykeys meant, I think, lack of connection felt to the eyes set in the updated modern standards. As for IJS, it wasn't designed to particularly encourage artistic development in competitions.

MFarone · Jun 11, 2010

HalfTriple said:
Prettykeys meant, I think, lack of connection felt to the eyes set in the updated modern standards. As for IJS, it wasn't designed to particularly encourage artistic development in competitions.

When I'm watching Peggy and Dorothy in their Olympic eligible days, I don't always feel their connection to the audience. I've always thought that was because there weren't many opportunities to perform in shows or tour so they hadn't fully developed their "presentation" skills.

dorispulaski · Jun 11, 2010

To remain eligible for competitive skating, Peggy & Dorothy could not be paid for skating. And anyone who was paid, could never compete with "Olympic eligibles". About all the shows were club shows or Ice Capades or Holiday on Ice, nothing like "Champions on Ice" existed in the 1960's.

Does anyone know when the Gala became a fixture after Olympics and Worlds? I know there was a Gala after Olympics in 1980. How about before that? And when did "Champions on Ice" start?

Tonichelle · Jun 11, 2010

dorispulaski said:
To remain eligible for competitive skating, Peggy & Dorothy could not be paid for skating. And anyone who was paid, could never compete with "Olympic eligibles". About all the shows were club shows or Ice Capades or Holiday on Ice, nothing like "Champions on Ice" existed in the 1960's.

Does anyone know when the Gala became a fixture after Olympics and Worlds? I know there was a Gala after Olympics in 1980. How about before that? And when did "Champions on Ice" start?

i think it started mid eighties. Hamilton was never in champs but g&g were, as was browning (who later battled with collins over contract) it may have started up around the same time soi did. In fact i think it started after 88 olympics for boitano to have a tour to headline?

snowflake · Jun 11, 2010

Olympia said:
Isn't it great how so many recent fans look at Yuka's version for the first time and are wowed by her?

You are talking about me

What a beautiful performance. Lovely skater who now is a perfect coach for another :love:

Sadly I never saw much from the pro skating.

Olympia · Jun 11, 2010

Tonichelle said:
i think it started mid eighties. Hamilton was never in champs but g&g were, as was browning (who later battled with collins over contract) it may have started up around the same time soi did. In fact i think it started after 88 olympics for boitano to have a tour to headline?

There's actually a book about it, which I, being a skating book packrat, have. When I get home from work, I'll try to remember to look it up, but I think they began sometime around 1981. Michelle was definitely in it for quite a few years, as was Irina.

100yen · Jun 11, 2010

Olympia said:
Isn't it great how so many recent fans look at Yuka's version for the first time and are wowed by her? Her appeal and command of the ice have not diminished. I gather she's very popular among other skaters themselves, both for her warm personality and for the quality of her skating.

Yes, I think many skaters love her, too! When other skaters go on tour with Yuka all you hear about her is how kind and funny she is to hang out with. She always seems to be skating from the heart, so that really draws people in, I think.

Olympia · Jun 11, 2010

dorispulaski said:
To remain eligible for competitive skating, Peggy & Dorothy could not be paid for skating. And anyone who was paid, could never compete with "Olympic eligibles". About all the shows were club shows or Ice Capades or Holiday on Ice, nothing like "Champions on Ice" existed in the 1960's.

Does anyone know when the Gala became a fixture after Olympics and Worlds? I know there was a Gala after Olympics in 1980. How about before that? And when did "Champions on Ice" start?

Okay, I have my book. Supposedly Tom Collins mounted an occasional tour in some years: 1969, 1972, 1975, 1978, and then the real annual tours started in 1980.

Also, as I was looking for any word of Cathy Foulkes (found nothing recent), I found a lovely site with discussions of skating and dance. There was a beautiful analysis in a forum of John Curry's skating style, by someone who seemed to be both a ballet fan and a skating fan. I don't know the rules of posting a link to another forum, so I'm not giving it here, but maybe someone could advise me.

dorispulaski · Jun 12, 2010

You may post a link to another forum, provided that it is to an area accessible to the general public without paying. As to how much you might quote from such a source in your own post, the rules on plagiarism apply, the same as for any other news source.

Additionally, since some boards allow unsourced rumors, and GS doesn't, please don't include a link to an unsourced rumor.

You can always consult the guidelines. A link to them is in my siggie.

Olympia · Jun 12, 2010

Thanks for the guidelines, Doris. The link is below. I'll summarize some of the points, because this information is really fascinating. It comes from a site called Ballettalk, and unlike Emily Frankel (see that thread in GS), who praises Mao's dancerly qualities but clearly doesn't understand the demands of skating, the posters on this thread are very well informed about skating--far better than I am, certainly!

They discuss the fact that in Curry's ice troupe, a lot of the moves are done very slowly, at school-figure speed, requiring rigorous edge control and (quoting here) "mastery on both feet, both edges of each blade, and both directions, as well as the ability to maintain flow off of single pushes."

Think about one big characteristic of skating: people jump and clockwise, or they jump and spin counterclockwise. Curry wanted his skaters to be more like dancers--able to move in both directions, at the same speed. So the moves were choreographed to execute at the speed of the weaker side.

You see this goal even in Curry's amateur skating. He doesn't jump to both sides, but he does pretty strong spins in both directions. Check the long program from the 1976 Olympics to see what I mean. The last skater I remember doing that in competition is Michelle, in 1998. (Another reason she's now and forever The Kween to me!)

The forum continues with a comparison of Curry with Robin Cousins, another wonderful artistic skater but less dance-based (and, I think, not as strong in school figures as Curry). Here's the link. Doris, please feel free to correct anything I've done wrong in this post.

http://ballettalk.invisionzone.com/lofiversion/index.php/t30189.html

MKFSfan · Jun 12, 2010

Layfan said:
Indeed. And I never understand how this is supposed to be a criticism, according to some people. Skaters are supposed to be performing out there. It's not unreasonable to think they are going to smile or make other expressions for the performance's sake.

I never get when people say that Michelle Kwan's emotions were choreographed and that's supposed to be a criticism. Personally, I feel Michelle mostly honestly felt the passion she displayed. But I'm sure there were times when she had to compete and couldn't muster up the same passion for whatever reason ... I don't know, maybe she fought with her mom or something ... was she suppose to grimace the whole performance?

Agreed-whether competing or in an exhibition, the entire this IS choreographed. I do feel the better artists are able to bring certain emotions into their performances to better enhanced the overall impact. Personally, that is why Michelle can bring tears to my eyes by skating to, say, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSaV440TLHg
or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NR697j3FFE

...whereas as much as I adore Yu-Na, I'm more blown away by her technical ability and the powerful way she can present a program, but I'm not moved emotionally the same way no matter how great jump content or more difficult spinning she can do! JMO of course! And I don't think it is JUST 6.0 Vs COP programs.

Olympia · Jun 12, 2010

Pretty much the way I feel, MKFSfan. I once read a wonderful statement by actress Tyne Daly, who's a powerful presence onstage as well as a TV actress. She said something about how actors are supposed to be good at breath control. That statement usually applies how actors, like athletes, control their own breathing to add strength and stamina. But Daly interpreted it this way: she said (paraphrasing here) "I control the audience's breathing. I control when they stop breathing, and when they start again."

It's a matter of taste which skater or skaters can do that for each of us as we watch. But a great skater has to have that power over at least some people, and preferably lots of people.

The Kween and the Queen

Mathman

janetfan

Match Penalty

janetfan

Match Penalty

janetfan

Match Penalty

Olympia

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Lilith11

Layfan

HalfTriple

Match Penalty

MFarone

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

snowflake

I enjoy what I like

Olympia

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft

Olympia

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Olympia

MKFSfan

Olympia

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