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Thread: The Kween and the Queen

  1. #46
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    I just went back and watched Kwan's 1998 Nationals Long Program of Lyra Angelica. Every little hand gesture was so beautifully placed and so fresh and new. The combination of Nichol's intricate yet flowing choreography and Michelle's ability to make it all sing is just astonishing. Its impact is never going to lessen for me.

    The great thing is that YuNa is also a skater whose impact is probably going to last. She has artistry and individuality as well as those mind-boggling jumps. So she won't be "replaced" by another skater who gets a larger point score than she has received. Her contribution to skating will endure. It's nice to know that we skating fans don't just have to look back to the "good old days" to see wonderful skating.

    Michelle is still my favorite. I think I've retired that trophy. But I'm happy with the skaters we have now, and that's a great thing. Now, if only we could get more skating shown on TV....

  2. #47
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    Its difficult to compare the two in objective kinda way because they are from different eras and compete under very different rules... but since both are the greatest of their "generation" and it would've been cool to see a 19 year old Kwan go head to head against a 19 year old Kim.
    I won't go into various explanations as to why, but I will say that head-to-head with age matching, Michelle was a more "complete" skater than YuNa, but YuNa has my heart. :o

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanford Wife View Post
    At 19, I'm sure Michelle would've had a similar approach used by Team Yuna in squeezing out each and every point - but we would've missed out on that sick COE spiral gliding across the ice. Under the ordinal system, we'd missed Yuna's greatness altogether because she doesn't have a complete set of triples, which would've killed her. Also, she probably would've suffered by the inability of S. Korea to effectively lobby for her witin the ISU.

    I suggest stop trying to compare the two and just worship each for the talent and passion they bring to the ice.
    Yes, I agree that Michelle and her team would have changed their programs to make CoP-friendly programs that would've succeeded, but I think it is unfair and non-objective to not say YuNa and her team would have done the same if they had competed under the ordinal system. I repeat, time and again, YuNa continued practicing her triple Loop even this past season when she didn't have it in either SP or LP (there is a clip of her doing it beautifully), and with her rigorous standards and strong technique, I am almost certain that if there was a stronger push/need to do it, she could have practiced it more and done it fine; ESPECIALLY given that 6.0 was less demanding of the busy-ness that her CoP programs have.

    I echo Blades of Passion when he says that YuNa may also be stifled under the rigidity of CoP, while Michelle was able to take advantage of the greater freedom that 6.0 granted.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Michelle is still my favorite. I think I've retired that trophy. But I'm happy with the skaters we have now, and that's a great thing. Now, if only we could get more skating shown on TV....

    To see more skating on TV you will unfortunately have to dust off the ol' "time machine."

    But for now the internet/YouTube can sure keep us informed as well as bringing back great memories.

    Did you watch Janet's return after 6 years away and three babies - and then skating so beautifully to "The Sound of Music?"

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    Yes, thank goodness for YouTube and the devotees who keep it stoked with great videos. I'll check out Janet's return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I won't go into various explanations as to why, but I will say that head-to-head with age matching, Michelle was a more "complete" skater than YuNa, but YuNa has my heart. :o

    Yes, I agree that Michelle and her team would have changed their programs to make CoP-friendly programs that would've succeeded, but I think it is unfair and non-objective to not say YuNa and her team would have done the same if they had competed under the ordinal system. I repeat, time and again, YuNa continued practicing her triple Loop even this past season when she didn't have it in either SP or LP (there is a clip of her doing it beautifully), and with her rigorous standards and strong technique, I am almost certain that if there was a stronger push/need to do it, she could have practiced it more and done it fine; ESPECIALLY given that 6.0 was less demanding of the busy-ness that her CoP programs have.

    I echo Blades of Passion when he says that YuNa may also be stifled under the rigidity of CoP, while Michelle was able to take advantage of the greater freedom that 6.0 granted.

    Perhaps this is correct in a way but Kwan has 10 years of great skates and several masterpeices. Kim is not, IMO in her league. Sorry, I see she is someone you adore. I find her very appealing as a person but overscored. Her three "wow factors" per Kwan are speed, ice coverage and her "humongous" per Kwan 3x3's. I still am waiting for her deficits to be corrected. Given her win at Oly's and her 23 point win, no one on her team is going to push her. And she does not seem like she will be in much longer. If we have seen her best eligible skating, and I think her Oly's were her best ever skates, then she is far from the Kwan medal count and I find only Bond and Gershwin to be near Michelle's artistry. Michelle never bombed at Worlds like that. She was the most reliable, consistent skater. Ever. And completely elegant while doing 7 triples. No offense to you or her adorers. If she wins most of the next four years and perfects her positions then she is arguably the best in history. But I highly doubt she could do this or will even try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by princess9 View Post
    [/B] Perhaps this is correct in a way but Kwan has 10 years of great skates and several masterpeices. Kim is not, IMO in her league. Sorry, I see she is someone you adore. I find her very appealing as a person but overscored. Her three "wow factors" per Kwan are speed, ice coverage and her "humongous" per Kwan 3x3's. I still am waiting for her deficits to be corrected. Given her win at Oly's and her 23 point win, no one on her team is going to push her. And she does not seem like she will be in much longer. If we have seen her best eligible skating, and I think her Oly's were her best ever skates, then she is far from the Kwan medal count and I find only Bond and Gershwin to be near Michelle's artistry. Michelle never bombed at Worlds like that. She was the most reliable, consistent skater. Ever. And completely elegant while doing 7 triples. No offense to you or her adorers. If she wins most of the next four years and perfects her positions then she is arguably the best in history. But I highly doubt she could do this or will even try.
    Don't ever underestimate Yuna's heart if she continues.

  7. #52
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by princess9 View Post
    [/B] Perhaps this is correct in a way but Kwan has 10 years of great skates and several masterpeices. Kim is not, IMO in her league. Sorry, I see she is someone you adore. I find her very appealing as a person but overscored. Her three "wow factors" per Kwan are speed, ice coverage and her "humongous" per Kwan 3x3's. I still am waiting for her deficits to be corrected. Given her win at Oly's and her 23 point win, no one on her team is going to push her. And she does not seem like she will be in much longer. If we have seen her best eligible skating, and I think her Oly's were her best ever skates, then she is far from the Kwan medal count and I find only Bond and Gershwin to be near Michelle's artistry. Michelle never bombed at Worlds like that. She was the most reliable, consistent skater. Ever. And completely elegant while doing 7 triples. No offense to you or her adorers. If she wins most of the next four years and perfects her positions then she is arguably the best in history. But I highly doubt she could do this or will even try.
    I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Michelle had won the gold in Nagano. Maybe she would have struggled to find the motivation to continue, like Yuna did at worlds. And then she wouldn't have gone on to win four more world titles and seven more national titles. She would not really be Michelle as we think of her today.

    It's true Yuna messed up at worlds. (although I think most skaters in the world would be thrilled to "bomb" their way to a world silver medal.) But Michelle was never in Yuna's position, never having competed at worlds after winning a OGM. I admire Yuna just for going - the first lady Olympic Champion to do so since Kristi Yamaguchi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Michelle had won the gold in Nagano. Maybe she would have struggled to find the motivation to continue, like Yuna did at worlds. And then she wouldn't have gone on to win four more world titles and seven more national titles. She would not really be Michelle as we think of her today.

    It's true Yuna messed up at worlds. (although I think most skaters in the world would be thrilled to "bomb" their way to a world silver medal.) But Michelle was never in Yuna's position, never having competed at worlds after winning a OGM. I admire Yuna just for going - the first lady Olympic Champion to do so since Kristi Yamaguchi.
    Very good points.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Michelle had won the gold in Nagano. Maybe she would have struggled to find the motivation to continue, like Yuna did at worlds. And then she wouldn't have gone on to win four more world titles and seven more national titles. She would not really be Michelle as we think of her today.

    It's true Yuna messed up at worlds. (although I think most skaters in the world would be thrilled to "bomb" their way to a world silver medal.) But Michelle was never in Yuna's position, never having competed at worlds after winning a OGM. I admire Yuna just for going - the first lady Olympic Champion to do so since Kristi Yamaguchi.
    That's soooo true. In other words their situations are quiet different.
    Last edited by brownfox; 05-30-2010 at 02:22 AM.

  10. #55
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Thanks for saving me the trouble of replying to princess9, LayFan.

    As for comments about "YuNa's hype preventing her from being pushed to be better", well, I could say it was Michelle's and her team's belief in her own hype that blocked her from pushing herself just a little bit more in order to win definitively over Tara Lipinski in 1998, leaving it up to the judges to make a close (but correct) call. Or maybe her belief in her own hype that decided she didn't need Carroll with her at SLC. No offense to Michelle and her adorers.

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    Prettykeys, I don't know if I agree with you about 1998, but I have always wondered what possessed Kwan to leave Frank Carroll (and Lori!) and not have a coach at all (!) for the Olympics. Someone (doubtless someone from this site) once pointed out that no matter how good you are, you can't tell for yourself how your jump approaches and positions are decaying. You need a coach's eye on you every day. If she had had Carroll shepherding her, she most likely would have stayed on her feet for the entire Long Program in 2002 and would have won. As someone else said recently on this site, your father can't coach you to a gold medal. (Unless your father is a coach of the level of Yuka Sato's father, Nobuo Sato, of course.) She's still my favorite for so many reasons, but I do wish she hadn't decided that that was the year she needed to rebel.

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    I enjoy your posts, mostly Prettykeys. Thanks for your opinions. I don't "adore" Michelle. I'm rather objective. But she has had such stellar, moving skates. Actually, I prefer the balletic style of Sasha. But Sasha was no great competitor. I just cannot make a case for any other skater to do what Michelle did for 10 years. As a fan you must know how extraordinary it was. Yes, she was the crowd and insider fave. Some folks said she did not deserve all that. But it's pretty groundless, don't you think, Prettykeys? Love your avatar as that is a real smile on YuNa's face, BTW. Tara won in Nagano because she did two triple/triples and the most difficult one. Michelle skated earlier and the judges left room. Some think Chen Lu was far more exquisite. You may disagree but Tara was an incredible skater and very mature and polished. She was no flash in the pan. She had reasons for going pro and good ones. So did Sarah, yet they get bashed for not having the longevity of Kwan.

    Sarah technically skated lights out and with great joy/freedom. She was very good for 16 though we never saw her mature as a skater. Her body was changing quite a bit still. It was very close in Nagano. Not close at all in SLC. Michelle fell. I don't think it would have mattered a bit if Carroll was there as MK said she felt she had gone as far as she could with him and implied she had learned all he could teach her. Was she arrogant to think she could win without a coach?? Not at all. She was a very experienced, very decorated compeitor at 21 in her second Olympics. Something else happened that we might never know. Doubtless someone here has an idea but I don't. Some say it was money issues. Michelle was wise not to just get any old coach to stand by the boards. She loves and trusts her dad. Makes sense to me Later on she went to Artunian as she knew she needed a jump coach. Her presentation/style was fixed and as matured as it would ever be long before Salt Lake. There are those who bashed Tara Lipinski to bits and Sarah for having the gaul to take away Michelle's gold. I saw an interview where Flemming says she was devastated Michelle lost to Tara and called her a "showoff." This was a private interview, not during her commentary, but still, it shows how Michelle was loved inside the community. It surprised me. The comment, I mean coming from PC Peggy.

    I think you can feel or believe whatever, it's who you enjoy that matters most, and for any reason. That's valid. But if you watch Lyra Angelica at US Nastionals 98 and her Olympic performance of it, I think you might see a masterpiece. I do think if everyone is kissing your tuckus and saying that you are perfect, you won't improve. As Doris the mod said in another thread, no skater is above criticism. I don't have a great emotional attachment to Michelle and sometimes I felt she got the reputation mark. I don't have a great emotional attachment to any skater, but after so many years, so many amazing performances, I have to say Michelle had something, well several things no one else has. When she competed, MK forum was very big and active and her fans were legion on the net. Now it is YuNa for different reasons.

    There is little doubt in my mind that had she won Nagano, she might have gone directly to college. It was her lack of that Gold Oly medal that kept her in, Having been beaten twice in the Olympics, she wanted to have more national titles and world titles. Michelle LOVED to compete. YuNa finds it stressful said she and likes show skating. There is the big difference. Kwan is like Yagudin and Plushenko. They loved to compete and want to win so badly. With the changes in the sport, we may see better jumper, better footwork, better dancers in singles , but Kwan had a little of everything and was a born competitor.

    Kim is a softer lady, I think without the killer instinct that Tara, Sarah and Michelle displayed. She is a shyer person and I smile when I see her say she wants to eat and have a normal life. With the demands of CoP I don't think we will see anyone stay in competition for 10 years. It is just too difficult. And why bother if you already have the major medals? If Kwan had an equal in dominance in the modern era I guess it would be Plushenko. There simply are no females. Yes, 6.0 skaters. Did they have it easier? No, look at the jump requirements that won 10 years ago. Did Michelle get a big ego, i.e. believe her own hype? I don't know. I would say she is very, very confident but not arrogant. As far as feedback, Danny Kwan is one very knowledgeable guy re FS and a Michelle expert. She also had feedback I heard froom Karen Kwan and Peter Oppegard. Her parents kept her very grounded and MK was always saying, "this is just a sport, not brain surgery." Michelle performed well. She was prepared in SLC. It's still ice. Two others outskated her. Who knows, maybe she would have been worse with Frank there. There was tension between them. I can tell you one reason I heard at the time, was that Michelle felt Frank did not push her on her 3x3 as she usually won with a 3x2 with a clean performance. As Slutskaya matured and got better second marks, Michelle would lose to her based on the jumps and speed. There was a time when Irina beat her six out of eight meets. There were only 3 skaters who could beat her in a decade. All pushed the jumps.

    Had Michelle a 3x3 as consistent/difficult as Kim's, no one could touch her. Michelle who came into the sport as a jumping bean child got her beautiful finesse from Lori and Frank. I hope when she writes her autobiography she gives them the credit they deserve.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys
    could say it was Michelle's and her team's belief in her own hype that blocked her from pushing herself just a little bit more in order to win definitively over Tara Lipinski in 1998
    No, it was a fractured toe that hampered her training leading up to the Olympics that blocked Michelle from pushing herself. She had to rearrange jumps to land what she did and that left out the 3t/3t because the toe jump caused the most pain. Had Michelle been able to do a 3t/3t in that same exact so-called "reserved" skate, or had she either not fallen or landed the 3t/3t in 2002, I have no doubt she'd be an OGM.

    Quote Originally Posted by princess9
    Had Michelle a 3x3 as consistent/difficult as Kim's, no one could touch her.
    I do believe had Michelle grown up under COP like Yu-Na did, she would've had a more consistent/difficult 3/3. As it was, in her day, 7 triple LPs were considered ideal and Michelle was able to achieve that. I have no doubt Yu-Na would've excelled under 6.0 as well and I bet we would've seen a more in depth artistic side to her skating, if she was given the freedom 6.0 allowed. And I do believe Michelle would've had great success under COP, just not the longevity.
    Last edited by MKFSfan; 05-30-2010 at 09:24 PM.

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    MKFSfan, which performances of MK had her sucessfully completing the 3t/3t?

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    Quote Originally Posted by princess9 View Post
    MKFSfan, which performances of MK had her sucessfully completing the 3t/3t?
    http://heatherw.com/mk/jump/bytriples.htm
    Click on each link. They'll be in red.

    I remember she tried a 3Lz/3Lo once (2001 Skate Canada, I think), but failed. =(
    Last edited by aftertherain; 05-30-2010 at 07:51 PM.

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