The Kween and the Queen

brownfox said:

Are we talking about Michael Jordan? Remember he retired from 1994 and 1995. He played again because baseball didn't work for him, plus his father's death. Jordan wasn't perfect. He depended on Jackson's coaching ability, Pippen, and the rest of the team. He had to face the Bad Boys of Detroit before he became a champion. Some say he was an average passer and a shooter.

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Yeah, he retired then returned and rose to the top again, he perfect the fadeaway after he returned. (his brief stay at baseball was good for baseball, everyone is sad about his father). Who said MJ was perfect, just that kyn is not the MJ of basketball. Please save the he depended on Pippen and the rest of the team talk. Basketball is a team sport everyone knows that. If yu want to talk about supporting cast for MJ, then we too can talk about the supporting team for kyn. Anyway part of Jordan's greatness include that he was willing to return and stayed until he was beat by the next generation's great. That is good for the sports. So until kyn is willing to return and compete until she is beat off the podium by the next generation skating great, she can not be called the Mj of skating.

BTW, who cares whether MJ's individual skill element is the tops or not, or even if he is just an average passer and shooter, which I completely disagree. Oh well, many consider ynk's spiral and spin postiitons is average at best. Some consider her triple loop skills very inferior too.

rtureck said:

Yeah, he retired then returned and rose to the top again, he perfect the fadeaway after he returnedc. (his brief stay at baseball was good for baseball, everyone is sad about his father). Who said MJ was perfect, just that kyn is not the MJ of basketball. Please save the he depended on Pippen and the rest of the team talk. Basketball is a team sport everyone knows that. If yu want to talk about supporting cast for MJ, then we too can talk about the supporting team for kyn. Anyway part of Jordan's greatness include that he was willing to return and stayed until he was beat by the next generation's great. That is good for the sports. So until kyn is willing to return and compete until she is beat off the podium by the next generation skating great, she can not be called the Mj of skating.

BTW, who cares whether MJ's individual skill element is the tops or not, or he is just an average passer and shooter. Oh well, many consider ynk's spiral and spin postiitons less than average. Some consider her triple loop skills very inferior too.

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yes, i'm sure you'd love to see that. i hope she proves you wrong and continues to make your blood boil

and to be clear, i do not think Yuna is the MJ of FS or any other mythical figure of greatness but just pointing out your tendency to rain down on any yunalover's parade

Figga said:

yes, i'm sure you'd love to see that. i hope she proves you wrong and continues to make your blood boil

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I too love to see ynk continues to compete, it is good for the sports. I never said she won't continue to compete, my speculoation is that she won't. All I said is she can't be called the MJ of skating until she returns and compete till the next generation skater(s) beat her off the podium. My blood is just fine, since I have a ton of Kween's skating programs on video.

Figga said:

and to be clear, i do not think Yuna is the MJ of FS or any other mythical figure of greatness......

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I never said you Figga kyn fan said that kyn is the MJ of skating, I was talking about and to someone else. And if you don't think kyn in her current status is MJ of skating, then we both agree

Michelle Hand Down

Michelle transformed figure skating. Her artistry remains at a level no other women's figure skater has reached. As another poster stated , it was "profound." That was becaise Lori Nichols taught her the importance of relating to and feeling the music. That is also why she connected to the audiences so well. Her passion for her art and her domination of the sport was obvious to all. There has been no other skater since, that has done that. Mirai may come closest to that combination of ability, passion and artistry. That is my hope.

Yu Na will never get there. I believe that is partly cultural. A display of one's emotions in public is not an Asian charcteristic. Their concept of artistry is different than ours. I also think she is essentially a more reserved person regardless of cultural differences. I don't find her warm and fuzzy. One of the reasons I loved Chen Lu's performance so many years ago was because she used Chinese music and her choreography reflected her cultural heritage. It was breathtaking. She clearly related to it and the result was one of the most beautiful performances in figure skating history.

Michelle, in her prime, was simply without peer and that has not changed.

figure skating in case point dominace-you sited tennis-you can't compare--why one big difference-- it is based on point across wins, not people, judges giving out plus's or minus's,
it is judges opinions to give the plus 1,2, 3, and minus 1, 2, 3 --in other words if one judge saw it good and another judge might have saw it good but due do not from federation, or didn't like skate, happen to beat in juniorsn, novice, lower level that same judge might have gave a -1 minus and or took full deduction instead of half of deduction for said so fault, not hight, not fast enough, no speed, low whatever, not being pushed by own federation, the poiint difference is huge.

a plus 1 and a minus 1 is a whole two points ahead. which makes a difference, which implies dominance-where there may not be one.
figure skating goes is totally subjective-yes they might have GUIDELINES-but rarely are they followed to the letter of law or rule for every skater, .
judges want you to win the easiest way is to give you high goes and lowball your competitors goes and point out mistakes on one-and ignore other,
so dominance in figure skating is in the person eye-not based on actual fact-when they don't judge on actual fact but opinion and what see only.
tennis, nba, they go by final scores not adding in subjectivie unless a call iscalled for. let say for example nba laker win the other night the total scores was what,
then because the referees thought the celtics played harder in their opinion they added what 20 points and lakers played half full or didn't like one they only added lets say 10 points who would won.
the call would be closer-. if you forget goes and go by points only the score and wins would be different-but figure skating adds in opinion, and subjectiviity the whole thing comes confulgated and and the final outcome comes into question and in some cases is wrong because the judges saw one person mistake and totally ignored other mistakes.
you state dominance-no-only if all skaters mistakes are included and taken into consideration for same amount- no lowballing one, and giving another high goes just because feel like it.

and to continue--stosur won with a 6-4, 7-6 (7-2) so see if you take away add points for once let say stousur -1 for bad move the final score in final set would have been a 7-5 not a 7-6 -( huge difference in goes--
since tennis goes only by points across line, or in basket--playes come across as more fair, unless unseen travel not called, bad call at mound, or on first base, 2nd
but figure skating doesn't have that luxuury of points only--they add in goes which is subjective--not point base only-it is eye of judges and they decide who gets high and low points, goes, ordinals and whatever,
they don't always base on what seen that day or night, they also based on who it is , who is been pushed front , more of who is being pushed behind scenes by federation, who federaton is playing favorite by ignoring rules or allowing rules to favor.
subjectiving if figure skating-plays in dominance-therefore no dominance because everyone opinions is different and the rules are guidelines not law and not followed in figure skating.

kyla2 said:

Michelle transformed figure skating. Her artistry remains at a level no other women's figure skater has reached. As another poster stated , it was "profound." That was becaise Lori Nichols taught her the importance of relating to and feeling the music. That is also why she connected to the audiences so well. Her passion for her art and her domination of the sport was obvious to all. There has been no other skater since, that has done that. Mirai may come closest to that combination of ability, passion and artistry. That is my hope.

Yu Na will never get there. I believe that is partly cultural. A display of one's emotions in public is not an Asian charcteristic. Their concept of artistry is different than ours. I also think she is essentially a more reserved person regardless of cultural differences. I don't find her warm and fuzzy. One of the reasons I loved Chen Lu's performance so many years ago was because she used Chinese music and her choreography reflected her cultural heritage. It was breathtaking. She clearly related to it and the result was one of the most beautiful performances in figure skating history.

Michelle, in her prime, was simply without peer and that has not changed.

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I agree with some of what you have said but let's remember skaters like Yuna and Mao are still young and may not have reached their artistic peak.

I am not Chinese or Asian but I think Chen-Lu's skating and body of work will probably become more important in the future. She was an original and for me one of the most elegant and expressive skaters I ever saw Live.

Michelle had very good coaching and Lori was also a big part of it. The influence of Janet Lynn's skating on Michelle is undeniable as it was basically force fed to her. Yuna has also studied Janet's skating and when i see Yuna and Michelle skate I always see a bit of Janet's influence in them.

Here is a wonderful moment in American skating history. It is Janet Lynn's return to the ice after a six year break and three babies. I hope someday to see Michelle, Sasha, Yuna, and Mao show us such lovely skating after so many babies and such a long break.
But I am not holding my breath

Here is the link and sorry but if you want to see it you have to wait for it to download. Scroll down to "Janet Lynn - 1981- The Sound of Music.

http://www.frogsonice.com/video/lynn/

Michelle had passion for what she did, great passion. Lori taught her how to express that passion through the music in her competitions and performances. Michelle's passion for the sport is what made her both a strong competitor and an expressive skater. I don't think yu-na has the same passion Michelle had. I am not saying Yu-na doesn't like skating, but she does not have a love -affair with it. I have no doubt in my mind that Michelle would have continued after Nagano even had she won. Yu-na is seriously considering retirement at a similar situation in her career.

Her artistry remains at a level no other women's figure skater has reached.

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Sorry, but although I am the first to agree that she transformed the sport and had great passion, her artistry can't come close to the natural ability Sasha has with music.

Sorry, but although I am the first to agree that she transformed the sport and had great passion, her artistry can't come close to the natural ability Sasha has with music.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Sasha is so beautiful on the ice.
That is why Sasha got her share of American fans evenly splitting with Michelle.

Michelle's real strength is EXCELLENT WINNING ABILITY with just above average technique and
jumps. And average artistry.

^

Tinymavy15 said:

Sorry, but although I am the first to agree that she transformed the sport and had great passion, her artistry can't come close to the natural ability Sasha has with music.

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I'd have to agree and disagree. I agree that Sasha has natural ability with music (Dark Eyes, Romeo & Juliet, etc), but I don't think Michelle "didn't come close" with artistic abilities (Salome, East of Eden, etc).

Bonus/Totally Irrelevant:
http://www.gifsoup.com/view/666269/usnats10-sasha-cohen-i-spin-o.gif
http://www.gifsoup.com/view/659356/ias09-michelle-kwan-o.gif

janetfan said:

I agree with some of what you have said but let's remember skaters like Yuna and Mao are still young and may not have reached their artistic peak.

I am not Chinese or Asian but I think Chen-Lu's skating and body of work will probably become more important in the future. She was an original and for me one of the most elegant and expressive skaters I ever saw Live.

Michelle had very good coaching and Lori was also a big part of it. The influence of Janet Lynn's skating on Michelle is undeniable as it was basically force fed to her. Yuna has also studied Janet's skating and when i see Yuna and Michelle skate I always see a bit of Janet's influence in them.

Here is a wonderful moment in American skating history. It is Janet Lynn's return to the ice after a six year break and three babies. I hope someday to see Michelle, Sasha, Yuna, and Mao show us such lovely skating after so many babies and such a long break.
But I am not holding my breath

Here is the link and sorry but if you want to see it you have to wait for it to download. Scroll down to "Janet Lynn - 1981- The Sound of Music.

http://www.frogsonice.com/video/lynn/

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Interestingly, I also see Janet Lynn's influences in Mao at times, especially her Nocturne SP. I don't think Mao studied her work as she only cite Midori Ito as her idol. However, Janet may have left some influence in Japanese skaters since she was popular in that country.

rtureck said:

Yeah, he retired then returned and rose to the top again, he perfect the fadeaway after he returned. (his brief stay at baseball was good for baseball, everyone is sad about his father). Who said MJ was perfect, just that kyn is not the MJ of basketball. Please save the he depended on Pippen and the rest of the team talk. Basketball is a team sport everyone knows that. If yu want to talk about supporting cast for MJ, then we too can talk about the supporting team for kyn. Anyway part of Jordan's greatness include that he was willing to return and stayed until he was beat by the next generation's great. That is good for the sports. So until kyn is willing to return and compete until she is beat off the podium by the next generation skating great, she can not be called the Mj of skating.

BTW, who cares whether MJ's individual skill element is the tops or not, or even if he is just an average passer and shooter, which I completely disagree. Oh well, many consider ynk's spiral and spin postiitons is average at best. Some consider her triple loop skills very inferior too.

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If it's necessary Yuna will probably bring her triple loop back. And we'll see if it's inferior or not.

Another view on Art and Sport

For me, the Kween will always be the best because her 'Field of Gold' at Olympics '02 has already burnt a big hole in my heart as one of the greatest skates ever. Even if it is not the most technically perfect or difficult, how i bawled over it still makes me tear up a little as I type this.

However I would like to share an alternative take when making the comparison. ( Sorry it is a bit wordy again, but hopefully someone would find some bits valid.)

I think it has generally implied that Yuna cannot be considered as amongst the 'greatest' yet because she doesn't have 'longevity'. To me this is nick picking and somewhat short sighted (and a little bit of sour grapes perhaps?). Is Schubert's or Chopin’s legacy worth any lesser because they both died so young? And just because Beethoven has lived a long time, and struggled to overcome with deafness, does that make his work greater or lesser than both of them?

Figure skating is both of ‘art’ and ‘sport’.

'Art' in Sport is only possible when it can invoke 'senses' and 'emotions' while making 'results' on the same 'occasion' within particular set of parameters including ‘environmental settings'. When applicable to figure skating, art is not about posing or the interpretations themselves, because nothing can be accomplished unless there is an audience there to react to them.

To use an example of modern art, a 'pile of bricks' in a construction site is not art, unless they are moved into a gallery space, arranged to embody a sets of ideals by the 'artists'. ‘Art’ can only be created when there are audiences reacting to them. It was only then, the brick themselves becomes ‘art’. The severity of these reactions and execution of these ideas by judges and casual observers determines how worthy of the art becomes.

In figure skating, 'art' is only attainable through the rare ‘moments’ of ‘state of grace' that the skater themselves were able deliver within these context. There might be video footage of these moments which people look back to admire and scrutinize, but the video replays are as worthy as art reproductions which you buy at Art Galleries or Museum. It shouldn’t really bear any significance on the original ‘art’ pieces themselves, which are the ‘moments’ when they happen.

IMHO, Yuna were able to deliver some of the greatest 'art' in at least 3 of her performances at 'key occasion', therefore this makes her worthy amongst the greatest.

- Tango De Roxanne (WC2007)
- Dance Macabre (WC2008)
- Gershwin (OGM 2009)

(Others worth mentioning are Scherazade and Lark Ascending - Even though not well as executed as it could have been, but the fact people still talking about it with regrets, shows it has artistic merits not yet realized)

To view Figure Skating as a Sport,
the results are ‘objectified’ stats ‘perceived’ by the official judges ‘relative’ to the occasion, co-competitors, rules and regulations of the time. In this respect, it is whole unfair to compare one skater’s accomplishments with another purely on stats on alone.

However, if one was to compare on stats, world record matters because even though they are ‘perceived stats’, they indicate a general consensus by the official governing body that uphold the standards to determine ‘how much more better’ the performance compares with the best standard.

Of course, because they are ‘perceived stats’ they are open to scrutinize. But if one was to continuing break world records, it should determines greatly on the athelet's worthiness in sport. The score differences against other competitors in the field also bears a great deal to the athelet's worth.

Also in sports, just because you were able to run 100 laps over 10 years consistently at 9.5 seconds, it doesn’t make you ‘better’ than someone who runs 2 laps at 9.4 seconds and then 9.3 seconds within the space of 1 month. If one was to judge purely in sport terms, longevity although admirable, it is secondary to how much further, faster, harder, higher the athletes were to further the boundaries of what is possible.

To bring back to the example to how Schubert and Chopin are appraised today, it is about the heights and the quality of their work that inspires that greatly determines their place in amongst the greatest. At the same time, it doesn’t distract any more or less from Beethoven’s own legacy and make him any more or less greater.

To debate their legacy according to personal preferences of the posters however is another different matter entirely.

Os168, you also have to keep in mind that many artists whether painters, writers, or composers only had their work recognized after they died. Schubert is one who only got more recognized after his death. You really can't accurately measure someone's legacy until years afterwards. Since Yuna hasn't officially retired as of yet, so it's hard to evaluate her overall legacy. As of now, Michelle is obviously the more influential skater and not only for her larger body of work.

Miki88, I am well aware of what is popular doesn't makes it best and similarly legacy can only be judged by history. However my whole take on the situation is simply to raise doubts on judging someone's worthiness based on longevity doesn't mean anything when you critically examine its place in terms of both 'art' and 'sports', either separately or together.

To simply discount repeated record breaking performances based on 'longevity' is as short sighted as those who discounted chopin and schubert's work during their life time because their breadth of their work is not enough.

Still, there is something cool about longevity in a competitive endeavor that so favors the young. Am I still the fastest gun in the West?

U.S. Nationals. She hears the battle horns sounding in the distance, her own name called, as it was called of old. Something stirs within her weary breast.

Onward into the fray. At full gallop she outpaces her page and her standard bearer. Cannon to the left of her, cannon to the right…

At dawn's early light, they search the part of the field where bodies lie thickest. “Here, over here, it is she!”

Sorrowing, they bear her off on her shield, unable to pry her ninth U.S. championship medal from her clenched fist.

Mathman said:

Still, there is something cool about longevity in a competitive endeavor that so favors the young. Am I still the fastest gun in the West?

U.S. Nationals. She hears the battle horns sounding in the distance, her own name called, as it was called of old. Something stirs within her weary breast.

Onward into the fray. At full gallop she outpaces her page and standard bearer. Cannon to the left of her, cannon to the right…

At dawns early light, they search the part of the field where bodies lie thickest. “Here, over here, it is she!”

Sorrowing, they bear her off on her shield, unable to pry her ninth U.S. championship medal from her clenched fist.

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LOLS nice one! XD You captured the Kween's competitive fire perfectly lols.

Hehe... it remind me of certain Clint Eastwood movie. I am very curious to see how the July show with the 3 Diva of the sports might ends up.

It would be just totally awesome if Wilson can come up with some choreography so the QKwehens can all skate on the same ice together with some subtle undercurrent 'show me yours and I will show you mine' match up demonstration of their best elements.

So every one gets to have their turn displaying their signature moves with others to follow with their version of the same elements. Gosh, it would be utterly amazing!