Looking back to SLC and pairs event

Those medals were a stupid move. They should have either been left as they were awarded ( If that had left B/S 's win under a cloud of doubt and controversy..they wouldn't have been the first) , or if enough evidence of wrongdoing existed , medals should not have been awarded at all.

A serious investigation and overhaul of the system could still have been undertaken. It was already long overdue. And has not been completed to everyone's satisfaction yet.

Once a "whistleblower" has cast doubt on more than one official..a substitute mark for one judge's results would mean nothing. If that person then recants, and tells a completely different story ,but none of the other principals crack.. no-one can be sure which version is true ,or if there's yet another " truth " at the crux of the matter. This puts the whole competition under a cloud , not just the gold medal placements.

ISU judging was already widely considered to be rife with corruption. There were already insistant voices calling for the exclusion of ice dance , in particular, from the games. The IOC was still trying to put it's own favours-and-payoffs-for-the-selection-committee scandal to rest.

Most , if not all , of the powers that be wanted a quick fix ( never mind if it's a dirty one ) before their own positions were placed in jeopardy. At that level, the skaters are just grist for their mill.

You can't have a conspiracy with one player. You need 2 or more. The question remains, with whom did Gailhaguet conspire to have Le Gougne give her vote to B/S. Other than the key question. The final result showed Russia Gold; Canada Gold. Anyone favoring either one of them should be happy.

escaflowne9282 said:

Many of the die-hard fans of B&S fully accept that there was a conspiracy admitted to. The problem is, the judge involved then took everything back and pointed the finger at her accusers and nobody was able to corroborate her original story one way or the other. This leaves some of us asking well what did actually happen? There was definitely something fishy occurring, but what are the specifics?

I'd rather all of this were questioned at the time, before re-awarding medals. We likely never will know for sure, since so much time has passed. And that concludes our quarterly beating of the dead horse.

I can't wait until we discuss Baiul vs. Kerrigan ...

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please, let the new season come quickly.

As one who favoured both couples ( not to mention admiring Shen/Zhao and a few others ) I , like Olympia, am just glad to have seen the performances. They only happen once , and though we can re-live them on video, nothing quite comes up that in-the-moment experience.

What was done was done. Can I live with it ? Yes. Can I blame the skaters for feeling their gold is somewhat tarnished ? No. Do skating politics exist? Oh,yeah. Do they take a more virulent form in some places or cases than others ? I do believe so. Does the ISU still need some major adjustments and more transparency? Is the world turning?

Like layfan ,am I longing for the new season ? :yes: Bet your sweet patootie !

That's my nutshell...over and out...

I think this thread does a beautiful job illustrating why this controversy had the outcome it did. What do you focus on?

Audrey19 focuses on the "wrongness" of B/S having to share gold. After all, B/S did nothing wrong besides skate two beautiful programs with one minor error, and faced media demonization (excluding O'Donnell's alleged comment, and I'm choosing to believe it to be false) for it. And despite escaflowne's comments, it truly seems to be a case "fair judging could've produced the results it did - B/S, S/P and S/Z, ergo, the cheating doesn't matter." (see Audrey's comment:

There were much worse results in the history of skating which were never officially debated, but a lot of media pressure and whining got S&P a title they never deserved.

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The implication is not that it isn't true, but that it doesn't matter. Of course, that means the idea of competition should really be thrown out the window. If we went this way, Kwan would be a two time OGM, so hey - it has its perks. This should be an anathema to any sporting fan, but it's not.

You can't take away B/S' gold medal. Again, half of the remaining judges agreed with the French judge (who, by the way, apologized to S/P at TEB 2009. Him, anyway). So do you do nothing? If you're the ISU, determined to protect yourself, that's not possible. You cannot ignore the fact that there is a very public outcry about cheating. But a full investigation leads to questions that I can't imagine the federations want answered. After all, you've got Jaana suggesting that the SLC scandal was CANADA politicking the other way (which strikes me as an absurd misrepresentation of the known facts - at least as recited by Wikipedia). And lets not ignore, Skate Canada is the largest skating federation in the world (per It's own website, so believe if you want). How many results were influenced by politicking? How many World medals do people believe were in part from politicking? From this last decade, I count 17 that people have accused of being as at least partly the response of politicking (mostly ice dance, heh). In the end, B/S did nothing wrong. They didn't take banned substances. They didn't order a hit on the other team. They can't renege the medal (an IOC rule, and we've seen it in the past). So what happens?

Like I said, you cannot do nothing. Ignoring media pressure for the moment, the basic fact is that you can't ignore the wrongdoing. As soon as Le Gougne admitted to feeling pressure from Gailhaguet, the ISU clearly needed to do something. Granted, they put a band-aid on open heart surgery, but I think the dual gold was the only plausible option from a political stand point.

Well, as always, I learned stuff from this thread I'd forgotten. Actually, for these four skaters, they got more attention than they ever would have and great pro careers. Everyone remembers them. So, though I feel B/S were artistically awesome, the big losers were the skaters who have to deal with CoP. And all the fans who don't understand at all why someone so superior loses due to slight jump UR's. I don't think we've seen the most inspiring competitions under CoP. I don't want to point out any particular skaters/winners to avoid offending anyone.

Is it more honest now? I don't know. I have to laugh at the comment regarding Kerrigan/Baiul. Sorry if this is such a dead horse for the long time regular regulars.

I don't think we've seen the most inspiring competitions under CoP

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Olympics. Womens. 2010. You'd have to go down to 12TH in the long program to find a fall. Can you think of a pre-COP event that had that kind of success?

ImaginaryPogue said:

Olympics. Womens. 2010. You'd have to go down to 12TH in the long program to find a fall. Can you think of a pre-COP event that had that kind of success?

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not in terms of staying upright. But that's not due to CoP rules and requirements.

I saw some great programs, without falls, but does that make for inspiration? I'll be honest, a rare commodity anywhere. I liked Kims programs more than any past ones. Was I inspired? Not really as much as I have been in other years. I can't really say why. Mao was not the mao I ike to see. Liked the axels, hated her programs. JoRo's SP was the most moving, but hard to watch for me, just too much of a worry for her and I truly cried a lot. It was the most memorable ladies skate for me anyway but she was not at her best. Not the olympics I hoped for her despite the medal. Loved Mirai! What a joy. Best performance for me. Perfect skater-what an event. I was sad for Rachel as I felt she was downgraded unfairly and was sent a message by the international judges re their opinion of her skating. There were some pleasant skaters. Lepisto has quality I like and Ksenia was a surprise to me. When I think of the podium, my fave is Nagano.

Tara and Sarah surprised me with great joyous freeskates I did not see coming. The upsets were so exciting and with such difficult programs. Kim performed as I expected. Great athlete but I'm more about what I consider artistry. (Nakano, Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka, matured Kristi, Katia, Mao in the past seasons-you get my taste) In Vancouver, not just in FS, everyone who was favored to win gold did. No exciting upsets on podiums. You only mention ladies so I'll stop there. My favorite performance otherwise came from V/M. I am once again a big fan of ice dance. It was spectacular. Absolutely the most beautiful thing I saw on the ice in Vancouver-hugely satisfying.

princess9 said:

not in terms of staying upright. But that's not due to CoP rules and requirements.

I saw some great programs, without falls, but does that make for inspiration? I'll be honest, a rare commodity anywhere. I liked Kims programs more than any past ones. Was I inspired? Not really as much as I have been in other years. I can't really say why. Mao was not the mao I ike to see. Liked the axels, hated her programs. JoRo's SP was the most moving, but hard to watch for me, just too much of a worry for her and I truly cried a lot. It was the most memorable ladies skate for me anyway but she was not at her best. Not the olympics I hoped for her despite the medal. Loved Mirai! What a joy. Best performance for me. Perfect skater-what an event. I was sad for Rachel as I felt she was downgraded unfairly and was sent a message by the international judges re their opinion of her skating. There were some pleasant skaters. Lepisto has quality I like and Ksenia was a surprise to me. When I think of the podium, my fave is Nagano.

Tara and Sarah surprised me with great joyous freeskates I did not see coming. The upsets were so exciting and with such difficult programs. Kim performed as I expected. Great athlete but I'm more about what I consider artistry. (Nakano, Michelle, Sasha, Shizuka, matured Kristi, Katia, Mao in the past seasons-you get my taste) In Vancouver, not just in FS, everyone who was favored to win gold did. No exciting upsets on podiums. You only mention ladies so I'll stop there. My favorite performance otherwise came from V/M. I am once again a big fan of ice dance. It was spectacular. Absolutely the most beautiful thing I saw on the ice in Vancouver-hugely satisfying.

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Heh. I'm not sure if you've read a lot of my posts on the subject, but I love COP and I tend to defend it vociferously. But the Nagano podium was definitely a great one.

I recently just watched the programs again-at the time of the 2002 Olympics I was just rooting for the Russian team because sometimes you just want streaks to continue and success to lead to more success so I was angry at the two gold medals because what I would hear at the time was that the Russians program was harder artistically and that Anton's mistakes weren't that big so with the harder program overall I wanted the RUssians to win. So when I watched again a few weeks ago you really did forget all about Anton's mistakes because B/S just put you under a spell and I just didn't connect with S/P at all. Even if they were technically perfect that night-they won the technical mark and that's all they deserved to win.

I just focused on the programs themselves! Oops well I don't think the deal that Le Gougne mentioned made any sense because if the Russian Ice Dance team did well how could the Russian judge vote for the French team? I mean that just doesn't make any sense at all? Unless the deal was that the Russian judge would rank the second Russian ICe dance team first the french team second and the first RUssian dance team third or lower or something? That part of the deal makes no sense. I just don't get it?

:sheesh: gmyers..The point is that all judges have always been supposed to give marks according to merit, not nationality. That year, A/P were widely considered the best in the field. Barring any mistakes , most people considered that they should win. The Russian judge and others should have voted for the French team if they did better,no matter how well the Russian team did.

But in the 2 or 3 years previous to the games,in particular, there had been a lot of suspicions , grumblings ,and accusations of judging improprieties. Many, many people considered that A/Pshould have won the 2001 WC over Fusar-Poli / Margaglio. At the same time, many people were equally shocked that in 2001 Lobacheva / Averbukh came back after an absence due to injury and won the bronze over a number of very good pairs who were in top condition.

Many people felt that if FP/M had not had Tarasova as their coach they could not have achieved their 2001 result. FP/M and TT were still in the mix ; L/A were enjoying an eyebrow-raising come back , with B/K and D/V also in the mix. Therefore the "deal" could have been not to push either the Italians or Russians ahead unfairly.

If there were nefarious goings-on, it would be extremely stupid to make it apples for apples..it makes it too noticeable. It's more likely to be an apple for half an orange and a couple of raisins..or whatever adds up to equal an apple in the minds of the players.

I think it may have been on a television program which I heard Skate Canada had begun proceedings to have the SLC matter turned over to the "Court of Arbitration for Sports" (since they felt the matter would be ignored). The case had actually been accepted by the court for investigation. Unlike the IOC and ISU, CAS is a more public venue, which meant any dirty laundry may have been exposed to the media. According to the information presented, this was something both the IOC and ISU did not want. The IOC pressured the ISU to find a resolution ASAP. Hence, the decision to award the second gold was made. This appeased Skate Canada, and the request to CAS was withdrawn.

There were rumors that Anton S would be the new president due to his very good past work in politics, but elections were today and the new president of RF is Aleksandr Gorshkov!

As soon as they elected the new president they took away all the presidents power and gave it to the new position Piseev will hold!!!! LOL !!! LOL !!!

seniorita said:

There were rumors that Anton S would be the new president due to his very good past work in politics, but elections were today and the new president of RF is Aleksandr Gorshkov!

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Gorshkov? No kidding? I haven't followed his career at all since he skated with Pakhomova. I have to assume he's been active in skating circles. Can you give us any details on his background, Seniorita?

I see, though, that gmyers says that Piseev still retains power. Well, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Ha ! the more things change , the more they stay the same. where does that leave Gorshkov with the ISU ?
He's the current head of the ISU technical committee. I believe it was Gorshkov who edged out Sally Stapleford when she was dumped,..Maybe Alla will take his old spot ?

Does this merit it's own thread ?

Can you give us any details on his background, Seniorita?

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To be honest I was unborn when Gorshkov won the Olympics and I did not know him until a couple of years ago that I saw old videos, so I cant tell you anything interesting. I know he was the head of ice dance technical com and that because I read it, thats all. I had seen him a lot commenting on some stuff around Olys period.
About Pissev, I dont know if I can quote from another forum but I do cause I cant rephrase it and if its not ok delete it

However Piseev was chosen a general manager of RFSF today and according to a new regulations which were also voted in Novogorsk all powers of RFSF president are delegated to RFSF general manager from now on.

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It seems they have new president but Pisseev will rule again. Bizarre.

Here's Skateweb's 2002 Olympic Pairs Free Skate Analysis.

Wow, no wonder you didn't try to rephrase that, Seniorita! There's no way to tiptoe around that one. That's as brass-faced a statement as I've ever seen.

I see from Colleen's post right before yours that Gorshkov has been a power in the technical committee. So that answers my original question. I blush to admit that I don't really pay attention to who's in charge in the ISU or the other skating organizations. The skaters show up, I enjoy their programs, and that's it. This is why I depend on you folk on the site!

Does anyone else know of other former skating champions who have ended up in positions of influence in their national skating organizations, or in the ISU? I do remember that one of the judges in 1998 for the ladies' competition was former German (really East German) world champion Jan Hoffmann, and that he put Kwan first in ordinals (remember ordinals?) on the strength of her artistry--so I've always had a soft spot for him.

In these days of technical specialists, many are former skaters:
David Santee is a Replay operator and Data Operator &techspecialist
Pairs
Todd Sand
Dance
Sergei Ponomarenko (dance USR in the day :respect:
Marika Humphreys (danced for GBR)
Judy Blumberg (USA)
April Sargent (USA)
Sylwia Nowak (skated for Poland)
Singles
Vanessa Gusmeroli (skated for France)
Anett Poetsch (Ladies Olympic Gold for E. Germany)
Jan Hoffnan OGM