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Thread: Looking back to SLC and pairs event

  1. #31
    - * - blue_idealist's Avatar
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    When I first watched the 2002 Olympics I thought that S&P deserved the gold BY FAR and were robbed. However, now after seeing the programs in not such an emotional state a few years later, I still think S&P were a bit better than B&S, but B&S were not as inferior as I'd previously thought.

  2. #32
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Thank you, escaflowne9282. I have no doubt that La Gougne was under intense pressure, and like you, I think it's a shame neither the ISU nor the IOC made a more serious effort to determine if it was just the usual skating politikking or something more serious. It's also too bad that the media, for the most part, lost interest once the second gold medals were awarded and allowed both organizations to get away with it.

    Colleen, I recommend that you check out The Second Mark, which does a good job laying out the events of SLC and the experiences the three medal winning pairs went through to get to that point. The sections on Shen and Zhao are particularly strong. I would also suggest that you make sure your own information is correct before criticizing others for making supposedly inaccurate statements.
    The problem with all this is that the die-hard fans of B/S find it very difficult to accept that there was a conspiracy admited to by one of the parties involved, but that is fact. Unfortunately, the other conspirator did not come forward as did the first, and the ISU ceased the investigation with a plea to the OIC for an unheard of awarding two gold medals. it was given by the OIC with a stern warning for the ISU to clean up their Act. Hence Secret Judging and the CoP.

    (I believe Cinquanta did know all about the conspiracy, but chose not to enlage on it. JMO.)

  3. #33
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    In my opinion B/S were not treated fairly in SLC Olympics. In 2001 Worlds they lost to S/P, because S/P had a more difficult freeskate programme (with some mistake, I believe) against an easier and faultless programme skated by B/S.

    In SLC Olympics B/S had a more difficult programme (with a just little mistake) and S/P were faultless, but with an easier programme. In my opinion B/S were as good as S/P in presentation. S/P should not have gotten the second gold medal.

    By the way, I don´t understand why Stapleford chose to "attack" LeGougne, because other judges chose B/S as well. Or maybe she knew LeGougne as a mentally weak judge, who says anything if the opposition is strong? If there really was a conspiracy, I have always felt, it was for the Canadian couple.
    Last edited by Jaana; 05-31-2010 at 12:23 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    The problem with all this is that the die-hard fans of B/S find it very difficult to accept that there was a conspiracy admited to by one of the parties involved, but that is fact. Unfortunately, the other conspirator did not come forward as did the first, and the ISU ceased the investigation with a plea to the OIC for an unheard of awarding two gold medals.
    Many of the die-hard fans of B&S fully accept that there was a conspiracy admitted to. The problem is, the judge involved then took everything back and pointed the finger at her accusers and nobody was able to corroborate her original story one way or the other. This leaves some of us asking well what did actually happen? There was definitely something fishy occurring, but what are the specifics?

    I'd rather all of this were questioned at the time, before re-awarding medals. We likely never will know for sure, since so much time has passed. And that concludes our quarterly beating of the dead horse.

    I can't wait until we discuss Baiul vs. Kerrigan ...

  5. #35
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    By the way, I don´t understand why Stapleford chose to "attack" LeGougne, because other judges chose B/S as well.
    I think it was because everyone already knew how all of the other judges were going to vote. Obviously, Russia, China, Poland and Ukraine would vote for the Russian team, and Canada, USA, Germany and Japan would vote for the Canadians, which is just what happened. So France was the swing vote.

    By the way, after first "confessing" that Didier Gailhaguet had pressured her to vote for B&S, LeGougne later said, no, it was the Candians that had been pressuring her all fall to vote for S&P.

  6. #36
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    OTOH, I think that we're only likely to come closer to the truth with the passage of time , after the people at the center are no longer vying for power within the ISU , and after ( if ever) the sport achieves an open judging system.

  7. #37
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    Let's not forget there was a confession and it was not the result of any torture.
    As happens frequently, a person gets home, lawyers up and then changes their story in order to try and save a tattered reputation.

    The odd thing is that this was nothing new and had been going on for about as long as there have been skating competitions.

    I have no doubt that we as fans believe our own trusted sources and it is natural for certain N. Americans to believe one thing and for European fans to believe a different story.

    There is probably some truth in both sides of the story.

    Both of the suspended French officials vowed to fight this - but apparently decided a three year ban was preferable to digging further into what really happened.

  8. #38
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    My then boyfriend is not a skating fan, but he is a athletic and artistic. He watched both programs and felt that B&S should've won because their program was more difficult from an overall perspective as comapred to S&P. SHould 1st place go to a clean simple program or a 1 bobble complex program? It's easier for the audience to meld into the clean program wins, but then we would only see safe programs.

    Can't say what the perspective is of someone who watched live? I think RealtorGirl attended and said that B&S had very scratchy blades that night, etc. and she went with S&P.

    I pretty much agree with most others. With or without the judging scandal, I could easily understand the voting being split. So, if S&P truly won the free program, which counts more than the short program in old scoring, then S&P would've won. However, the split went to B&S which gives them the gold.

    Unfortunately, Scott & Sandra's biased commentary and the North American media made this into a circus. I do think S&P were somewhat villlified as they were not the one's crying out for gold. Jamie has said in interviews that she was disappointed to not have won, but was proud of her silver medal. She didnt' want to give it back and she said it wasn't the same to have the gold awarded so many days after the competition. Both pairs handled it with as much grace as possible.

  9. #39
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Without Le Gougne , it would have been just another in a long line of scandals. Whatever the circus atmosphere...we'd all seen circuses before. They'd always come and gone , but no-one before ever came so close to revealing how all those clowns got into the car in the first place.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyang View Post
    However, the split went to B&S which gives them the gold.
    According to the ISU rules, in the case where one judge cannot complete her assignment, the scores of the alternate judge are substituted. There are no "ties."

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    BTW, B/S did not get a 9-0 decision for their vastly superior (and clean) SP. Two judges went with S/P.
    Those two judges being Canada's infamous wheeler-dealer Benoit Lavoie and the German judge, Sissy Krick, well known even to this day for never giving s top score to any Russian skater no matter what.

    By the way, the names and nationalities of the judges have been removed from the event results available on the ISU's Icecalc site. The nationality was replaced retroactively with "ISU judges."

  11. #41
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Those medals were a stupid move. They should have either been left as they were awarded ( If that had left B/S 's win under a cloud of doubt and controversy..they wouldn't have been the first) , or if enough evidence of wrongdoing existed , medals should not have been awarded at all.

    A serious investigation and overhaul of the system could still have been undertaken. It was already long overdue. And has not been completed to everyone's satisfaction yet.

    Once a "whistleblower" has cast doubt on more than one official..a substitute mark for one judge's results would mean nothing. If that person then recants, and tells a completely different story ,but none of the other principals crack.. no-one can be sure which version is true ,or if there's yet another " truth " at the crux of the matter. This puts the whole competition under a cloud , not just the gold medal placements.

    ISU judging was already widely considered to be rife with corruption. There were already insistant voices calling for the exclusion of ice dance , in particular, from the games. The IOC was still trying to put it's own favours-and-payoffs-for-the-selection-committee scandal to rest.

    Most , if not all , of the powers that be wanted a quick fix ( never mind if it's a dirty one ) before their own positions were placed in jeopardy. At that level, the skaters are just grist for their mill.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 05-31-2010 at 03:53 PM.

  12. #42
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    You can't have a conspiracy with one player. You need 2 or more. The question remains, with whom did Gailhaguet conspire to have Le Gougne give her vote to B/S. Other than the key question. The final result showed Russia Gold; Canada Gold. Anyone favoring either one of them should be happy.

  13. #43
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    Many of the die-hard fans of B&S fully accept that there was a conspiracy admitted to. The problem is, the judge involved then took everything back and pointed the finger at her accusers and nobody was able to corroborate her original story one way or the other. This leaves some of us asking well what did actually happen? There was definitely something fishy occurring, but what are the specifics?

    I'd rather all of this were questioned at the time, before re-awarding medals. We likely never will know for sure, since so much time has passed. And that concludes our quarterly beating of the dead horse.

    I can't wait until we discuss Baiul vs. Kerrigan ...


    please, let the new season come quickly.

  14. #44
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    As one who favoured both couples ( not to mention admiring Shen/Zhao and a few others ) I , like Olympia, am just glad to have seen the performances. They only happen once , and though we can re-live them on video, nothing quite comes up that in-the-moment experience.

    What was done was done. Can I live with it ? Yes. Can I blame the skaters for feeling their gold is somewhat tarnished ? No. Do skating politics exist? Oh,yeah. Do they take a more virulent form in some places or cases than others ? I do believe so. Does the ISU still need some major adjustments and more transparency? Is the world turning?

    Like layfan ,am I longing for the new season ? Bet your sweet patootie !

    That's my nutshell...over and out...
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 05-31-2010 at 07:27 PM.

  15. #45
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    I think this thread does a beautiful job illustrating why this controversy had the outcome it did. What do you focus on?

    Audrey19 focuses on the "wrongness" of B/S having to share gold. After all, B/S did nothing wrong besides skate two beautiful programs with one minor error, and faced media demonization (excluding O'Donnell's alleged comment, and I'm choosing to believe it to be false) for it. And despite escaflowne's comments, it truly seems to be a case "fair judging could've produced the results it did - B/S, S/P and S/Z, ergo, the cheating doesn't matter." (see Audrey's comment:
    There were much worse results in the history of skating which were never officially debated, but a lot of media pressure and whining got S&P a title they never deserved.
    The implication is not that it isn't true, but that it doesn't matter. Of course, that means the idea of competition should really be thrown out the window. If we went this way, Kwan would be a two time OGM, so hey - it has its perks. This should be an anathema to any sporting fan, but it's not.

    You can't take away B/S' gold medal. Again, half of the remaining judges agreed with the French judge (who, by the way, apologized to S/P at TEB 2009. Him, anyway). So do you do nothing? If you're the ISU, determined to protect yourself, that's not possible. You cannot ignore the fact that there is a very public outcry about cheating. But a full investigation leads to questions that I can't imagine the federations want answered. After all, you've got Jaana suggesting that the SLC scandal was CANADA politicking the other way (which strikes me as an absurd misrepresentation of the known facts - at least as recited by Wikipedia). And lets not ignore, Skate Canada is the largest skating federation in the world (per It's own website, so believe if you want). How many results were influenced by politicking? How many World medals do people believe were in part from politicking? From this last decade, I count 17 that people have accused of being as at least partly the response of politicking (mostly ice dance, heh). In the end, B/S did nothing wrong. They didn't take banned substances. They didn't order a hit on the other team. They can't renege the medal (an IOC rule, and we've seen it in the past). So what happens?

    Like I said, you cannot do nothing. Ignoring media pressure for the moment, the basic fact is that you can't ignore the wrongdoing. As soon as Le Gougne admitted to feeling pressure from Gailhaguet, the ISU clearly needed to do something. Granted, they put a band-aid on open heart surgery, but I think the dual gold was the only plausible option from a political stand point.

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