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Thread: Who will be the next sweet heart of American figure skating?

  1. #121
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    What imaginary thread are you reading? No one -- moderator or otherwise -- has favored Rachael over Mirai in this discussion. As for me, I gave my opinion of Mirai's talent and potential in post 113 above.

    Who is the front-runner for America's sweetheart? I just did a quick count through this thread, and so far the vote is

    Mirai -- 21 votes (including R.D., who -- like Mikey on the commercial -- doesn't like anyone. )

    Adam Rippon -- 5 votes.

    Evan Lysacek -- 2 votes.

    One vote each for Agnes Zawadki, Christina Gao, Nathan Chen, Katarina Kudgeyku, Keegan Messing, Gracie Gold, Carolyn Zhang (2 votes, counting -- by implication -- Polymer Bob's ), Kimmie Meissner, and Ashley Wagner. There were two posts saying it could be anyone, we'll have to wait and see.

    0 votes for anyone else.

    As for Rachael, I believe that she, like other aspirants to skating fame and glory, is doing the best she can with the talent that the Good Lord in his wisdom has given her, and we should applaud and encourage her for that.
    Not a problem and so you know I cheated and voted twice for Mirai

    I wish nothing but the best for Rachael and think her decision to skip school for a year shows some real dedication to skating on her part. Many think she has already peaked - but she can still be a factor and with a little better artistry and speed could contend for a world medal next season.

    That might be a very nice way for her to finish her competitive skating career. For all I know she might be planning to stick around for Sochi.

  2. #122
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    janetfan, Why is crediting Sasha with a strong competitive spirit a bad thing? I didn't make the comment you are complaining about, but if this is true of Sasha (and as I don't know her personally, I can't say whether it is true or not)

    "Sasha does not like losing and because of that she will never compete again."
    what the heck in that statement slanders Sasha's character?

    No strong competitor likes losing. In fact, I can't remember a competitor good enough to be seen on TV who could have in any way been seen as liking losing. Sasha always struck me as very competitive.

    The slander, if there is one, is that Sasha can't win as her body is today, and as the rules are today. Only Sasha knows whether she feels that is true. And only God knows if it is really true or not (and I don't mean that irreligiously)

    Now if the question is with respect to US Nationals, Sasha on a good day, and without the physical problems that have plagued her of late, can win US Nationals over either Mirai or Ashley or Rachael on any given day, IMO. To say that she couldn't, would just be wrong, but an opinion, not slander. But do you think Sasha will be satisfied any more with just winning US Nationals if she can't medal internationally?

    If Sasha believes she can't win internationally, that is not a character fault either, whether she feels that way or not.

    Now I do think it would be difficult for Sasha to win at international level as the rules stand today.
    1. Neither her flip not lutz has a good, steady correct edge, so her GOE on those jumps will not be +3 when landed. She comes out behind Joannie on this count.
    2. She has never had a 3/3 that was fully rotated and secure in a program so she can't work this point getter as well YuNa can.
    3. She does not have a triple axel like Mao
    4. She has historically had problems skating 2 flawless programs (or at least 2 programs that appear flawless), so that she has to rely on high PCS to medal, and Mao, Joannie & YuNa all score high PCS scores. Internationally, Sasha cannot rely on PCS to overcome her other problems with respect to those three.
    5. No bonus has been added to COP for being able to do 2a or 3a,3t,3f, 3lz, 3lp and 3s in a single program. Sasha is one of the few these days that can do one of each, but no extra credit is given for it, which is a shame, IMO.

    Perhaps the rules will change. It is possible to design a set of rules that Sasha could medal with internationally, because she has a number of really excellent aspects of her skating. But not the current rules.

    And at her age and with her World medals, US championships & Olympic silver, do you think she wants to compete further if she can't win Worlds or Olympics? I don't know, but if I were her, I probably wouldn't.

    I don't think there is any character flaw involved, since that's how I'd feel myself.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Mirai's story - being the daughter of immigrants who came to USA looking for better opportunities is a very American story and one the public can embrace.
    Absolutely right.

    But would this also apply to anyone else?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    janetfan, Why is crediting Sasha with a strong competitive spirit a bad thing? I didn't make the comment you are complaining about, but if this is true of Sasha (and as I don't know her personally, I can't say whether it is true or not)



    what the heck in that statement slanders Sasha's character?

    No strong competitor likes losing. In fact, I can't remember a competitor good enough to be seen on TV who could have in any way been seen as liking losing. Sasha always struck me as very competitive.

    The slander, if there is one, is that Sasha can't win as her body is today, and as the rules are today. Only Sasha knows whether she feels that is true. And only God knows if it is really true or not (and I don't mean that irreligiously)

    Now if the question is with respect to US Nationals, Sasha on a good day, and without the physical problems that have plagued her of late, can win US Nationals over either Mirai or Ashley or Rachael on any given day, IMO. To say that she couldn't, would just be wrong, but an opinion, not slander. But do you think Sasha will be satisfied any more with just winning US Nationals if she can't medal internationally?

    If Sasha believes she can't win internationally, that is not a character fault either, whether she feels that way or not.

    Now I do think it would be difficult for Sasha to win at international level as the rules stand today.
    1. Neither her flip not lutz has a good, steady correct edge, so her GOE on those jumps will not be +3 when landed. She comes out behind Joannie on this count.
    2. She has never had a 3/3 that was fully rotated and secure in a program so she can't work this point getter as well YuNa can.
    3. She does not have a triple axel like Mao
    4. She has historically had problems skating 2 flawless programs (or at least 2 programs that appear flawless), so that she has to rely on high PCS to medal, and Mao, Joannie & YuNa all score high PCS scores. Internationally, Sasha cannot rely on PCS to overcome her other problems with respect to those three.
    5. No bonus has been added to COP for being able to do 2a or 3a,3t,3f, 3lz, 3lp and 3s in a single program. Sasha is one of the few these days that can do one of each, but no extra credit is given for it, which is a shame, IMO.

    Perhaps the rules will change. It is possible to design a set of rules that Sasha could medal with internationally, because she has a number of really excellent aspects of her skating. But not the current rules.

    And at her age and with her World medals, US championships & Olympic silver, do you think she wants to compete further if she can't win Worlds or Olympics? I don't know, but if I were her, I probably wouldn't.

    I don't think there is any character flaw involved, since that's how I'd feel myself.
    I don't disagree with much of what you have written here. Particularly since you offered it as an opinion and not a statememnt of fact, as if you actually knew Sasha or had interviewed her.

    Obviously you and the other mods see nothing wrong with so much Sasha bashing or it would not have been so prevalent at GS. So we are looking at this from much different perspectives.

    Comments made by Jenny Kirk last year caused a ruckus. Hersh was indeed right that from a journalistic point Jenny was specualting and although she was "blogging" and entitled to her opinion it was clear her point was to say Sasha was lacking courage to compete.

    Since you have no problem with the comment I quoted you might agree with Jenny as well.

    If I were to say Michelle called off her comeback last season because she does not like losing it could be taken several ways. If I were to say "Michelle can't stand losing and will therefore never compete again" I think I am crossing a line since I don't know Michelle and have never interviewed her.

    Maybe such a comment could be taken several ways. I see it as questioning an athletes courage and heart.
    You see it differently. I don't think such comments are nice, honest and based on real information which makes them highly speculative, and more like rumors than facts.

    Sasha may retire and never compete again at an ISU event. I would like some facts or a link where she said that she will never compete again because she can't stand losing. - otherwise you can write all day - but still we are left with little more than a rumor and what feels to me like an attack on her character.

  5. #125
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    I feel Sasha could certainly compete again if she stays in shape. ( She was certainly in shape at Nationals. You could see her muscles. ) But she has a problem. She received no Grand Prix assignments. There is nothing she can do until Nationals, where she has a bye. Her only option is to go to Nationals and do her best.

    The question then becomes, how well does she have to do at Nats to get to an ISU competition? Best case : top 2 ladies go to Worlds, next 3 go to 4CC. That means if Sasha makes top 5, she gets an ISU event, as well as a bye to next year's Nats.

    That's the best case. But lets say top 2 go to Worlds, and top 3 to 4CC. That means Sasha has to be top 3 to get an ISU event.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    But would this also apply to anyone else?
    First-generation (parents not born in America) of the skaters listed earlier: Agnes Zawadzki, Christina Gao, Nathan Chen, Katarina Kulgeyko, Caroline Zhang...

    As has been pointed out earlier, there is still the Ladies TBA spot at Skate America that possibly could go to Sasha...

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    I feel Sasha could certainly compete again if she stays in shape. ( She was certainly in shape at Nationals. You could see her muscles. ) But she has a problem. She received no Grand Prix assignments. There is nothing she can do until Nationals, where she has a bye. Her only option is to go to Nationals and do her best.

    The question then becomes, how well does she have to do at Nats to get to an ISU competition? Best case : top 2 ladies go to Worlds, next 3 go to 4CC. That means if Sasha makes top 5, she gets an ISU event, as well as a bye to next year's Nats.

    That's the best case. But lets say top 2 go to Worlds, and top 3 to 4CC. That means Sasha has to be top 3 to get an ISU event.
    Only Sasha knows how she feels. She may have told US Skating that she was not interested in any GP assignments this season. Or US Skating might have passed her over for younger skaters. I don't know which is true but I don't think it has anything to do with Sasha's courage or some fear of competing and losing. She has been competing for most of her skating career and has done better than all but a very few skaters of her era.

    Evan did not get any GP assignments either and I think only Evan knows what his plans for the future are.
    Somehow I doubt that Evan will not compete in the GP this season because he can't stand losing. He most likely is weighing different options for his future. Sasha is probably doing the same thing.

  8. #128
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    If the moderator's here wish to favor Rachael so be it. I don't think their comments change the broader feeling of most skating fans who appear to see Mirai as being the more exciting skater and having more star quality. :
    I'm actually a fan of Mirai. I just don't see the point of tearing one down to make the other look better.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 06-16-2010 at 10:14 AM.

  9. #129
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Comments made by Jenny Kirk last year caused a ruckus. Hersh was indeed right that from a journalistic point Jenny was speculating...
    You and I are alike in that we like to defend the picked-on underdog. To me, in a fight between Jennifer Kirk and Phil Hersh, Kirk is the damsel in distress and Hersh is the Big Bad Wolf, so natually I rush in to take her side.

    I feel the same for Rachael. No matter what she does, she can't catch a break from the skating blogosphere. Every time her name comes up on a skating board there are ten negative posts for every positive one. And even the "positive" posts are grudging, like throwing a bone to an ugly dog.

    To me, Sasha is not in that category. Some people like her, some people don't. For every critical post there is a gushing one. I don't think Sasha cares. She has millions of fans who number her among the all-time greats of the sport and who love her to pieces -- plus, in show biz, all publicity is good publicity.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Mirai did the whole tour and is a full SOI cast member. Rachael did what - a few guest appearances? :sheesh:
    No, neither of them did the whole tour. Nagasu did more stops but definitely was not full-time.

    To me, in a fight between Jennifer Kirk and Phil Hersh, Kirk is the damsel in distress and Hersh is the Big Bad Wolf, so natually I rush in to take her side.
    Kirk's a strong woman, she can stand up and defend herself.

    No matter what [Flatt] does, she can't catch a break from the skating blogosphere. Every time her name comes up on a skating board there are ten negative posts for every positive one. And even the "positive" posts are grudging, like throwing a bone to an ugly dog.
    I have to agree with this, at least partially.

    With a skater like Meissner, I've found the opposite phenomenon to be true. Some posters defend this girl as if she is their own daughter. I don't get it.

  11. #131
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Kirk's a strong woman, she can stand up and defend herself.
    Hersh vs. Kirk -- to each his own.

    Phil

    Jenny

    Last edited by Mathman; 06-16-2010 at 11:32 AM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    First-generation (parents not born in America) of the skaters listed earlier: Agnes Zawadzki, Christina Gao, Nathan Chen, Katarina Kulgeyko, Caroline Zhang...

    As has been pointed out earlier, there is still the Ladies TBA spot at Skate America that possibly could go to Sasha...
    Mirai too, right? I don't believe her parents were born in America.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Hersh vs. Kirk -- to each his own.

    Phil

    Jenny

    Looks can be deceiving

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    As has been pointed out earlier, there is still the Ladies TBA spot at Skate America that possibly could go to Sasha...
    Yes it could. That was my point on Sasha. Even if she wants to compete again, getting an ISU event is not a trivial matter. She can either get a TBA spot, or fight for a World or 4CC spot with the other girls. If she gets a TBA spot and gets a high score, that puts her in line for 1 or 2 GP events next year, even if she somehow falters at Nationals.

  15. #135
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You and I are alike in that we like to defend the picked-on underdog. To me, in a fight between Jennifer Kirk and Phil Hersh, Kirk is the damsel in distress and Hersh is the Big Bad Wolf, so natually I rush in to take her side.
    [Warning: off topic snark]

    Not to me! Kirk vs. Hersh is more like a fight between a Wicked Stepsister and the Big Bad Wolf.

    http://www.sasha-cohen.com/wp-conten...a-cohen-12.jpg

    aww, the Big Bad Wolf only rushed to defend Princess Sasha's honour.

    awwwwwwwwwwww

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