Rank and Rate the top 5 Men's Long Programs of the 1994 Olympics.

[gmyers]

I don't see why it doesn't seem to bother a lot of people that for 10 years winners of worlds and Olympics did quads and now that element is no longer done by winners. The issue is that what I thouught was a technical advancement in jumping is vanishing. Now that has never happened before in the sport. The issue of having to do backload programs and do level 4 spins and steps is now making the quad vanish. I would much rather see a quad done than a level 4 step sequence. Now lots of people would rather see a level 4 step sequence with tons of GOE rather than a quad jump. It seems that they are now running the sport and who knows how much they will push jumps down to get the spins and steps they want to see.

I want to see a skater do a quad triple and then do a level 4 spins and step sequence with great GOE. Right now there seems to be a correlation between no quad skaters doing level 4 spins and steps and quad skaters doing under level 4 spins and steps for the most part.

I brought up Takashi's underroated quad flip because it is a quad he could attempt but failing to do it would not harm is score as much if he URed it like with a quad toe or salchow. For himself he could say he tried a quad but if he knew he couldn't land it he still did a jump that many do as a stand alone triple.

[gmyers]

Two of his jumps were noticeably off and had difficult landings. He had negative GOE on his first 3A and got base value for his 3-2. Additionally, his landing on his 4-3 wasn't secure enough to add his double loop (which he intended, if you look at the scores as posted here. Had he landed more securely, with better flow out of his jumps, he likely would've garnered the 1.36 points necessary to win (if you look at his best jump GOES, this is true). Landing better doesn't mean "not making the really obvious mistakes," in this case.


e.

I know that link says he intended to add a double loop at the end of his quad triple combo but he didn't do that in the previous 3 competitions he competed in so I don't know how reliable that is.

[Tonichelle]

a jump out of footwork is a heck of a lot harder - and yet more pleasing to the eyes - than a long drawn out telegraphed jump that ends up being scratched out at best.

[gmyers]

Sometimes I enjoy the suspense and build up to a quad or triple axel that some call telegraphing a jump. How often is the jump out of steps really difficult on the scale of difficultulty of jumps.

[Blades of Passion]

I think Urmanov deserved to win, considering that spins in the LP were treated as a choreographic frill back in 1994 rather than an actual graded element, a little check off box, yup did a spin ...sort of

Particularly I detest his choreography when he is dressed to skate to classical music, and the music actually is classical music. (There is a phone in the 18th century?? Did they dance the hokey pokey then????)

If you asked me where the choreo and interp marks (COP) should be for the programs, definitely Browning, Candeloro, and Stojko all beat Urmanov in that department.

LOL, then why did Urmanov deserve to win?

Sometimes I enjoy the suspense and build up to a quad or triple axel that some call telegraphing a jump.

Yeah, for the big jumps I don't find transitions to be necessary. Although, some of Matt Savoie's transitions into his Triple Axels were breathtaking.

Even for the easier Triples you don't always need transitions beforehand. It's all about the style and mood of the performance, and of course the music. With CoP these days, sometimes transitions are just superfluous extra movements that don't interpret the music at all. *cough* Evan Lysacek *cough*

[ImaginaryPogue]

I don't see why it doesn't seem to bother a lot of people that for 10 years winners of worlds and Olympics did quads and now that element is no longer done by winners. The issue is that what I thouught was a technical advancement in jumping is vanishing. Now that has never happened before in the sport. The issue of having to do backload programs and do level 4 spins and steps is now making the quad vanish. I would much rather see a quad done than a level 4 step sequence. Now lots of people would rather see a level 4 step sequence with tons of GOE rather than a quad jump. It seems that they are now running the sport and who knows how much they will push jumps down to get the spins and steps they want to see.

I want to see a skater do a quad triple and then do a level 4 spins and step sequence with great GOE. Right now there seems to be a correlation between no quad skaters doing level 4 spins and steps and quad skaters doing under level 4 spins and steps for the most part.

I brought up Takashi's underroated quad flip because it is a quad he could attempt but failing to do it would not harm is score as much if he URed it like with a quad toe or salchow. For himself he could say he tried a quad but if he knew he couldn't land it he still did a jump that many do as a stand alone triple.

.... okay .... I'm not gonna argue this much longer as I feel like I'm pounding sand.

As for your next point, I'd argue that Chans 3-2-2 in his POTO program is nutsy hard with all the steps beforehand.

I wanna see everything too. But what you've been saying is that this one thing is making the quad disappear, and that's not true. Another example: Joubert backloaded five jumping passes in 2008, as did Buttle, and actually got a higher bonus than the Canadian skater. Buttle more than made up for it by doing three combos not two, harder footwork, harder spins, better everything, and he did a 3A-2-2 instead of a 2A-1 as one of his combos. I DON'T want to see mediocre quads at the expense of great spins AND great/hard footwork AND clean jumps AND loaded programs AND great programs. If it's not either or (and I think Brezina, Amodio, Kozuka, and yes, Chan will show us that), then terrific. But if it is, I know what side I'm on.

And my other point is that we've seen in this thread that technical elements (spins) weren't always treated as such. The reason for the Herculean advancement in jumps WAS because of the shunting of other aspects (footwork, spins, edging, etc). So, now those are making the advances we missed in the past.

[Olympia]

Pogue, your analysis is so clear and helpful. It helps me know why I like the skaters I like, but it also helps me understand why I need to admire skaters I might not necessarily get teary-eyed over.

You also make a good case for the CoP, by showing how logically it evaluates the elements of skating and compels skaters to concentrate on many aspects of skating, not just one. I worry about other effects of CoP (which we've all talked about, so I won't go into them here), but certainly one advantage is that it has given more weight to spins, entries into jumps, and so on. On the fans' side, certainly using CoP to analyze a skater's program can show us the strengths and weaknesses of that skater's technique. I appreciate the insights!

I especially appreciate your last paragraph, about the way jumps sometimes developed at the expense of other elements, and that now those other elements are catching up to the jumps.

[seniorita]

Everytime I read that Lysacek didnt do the quad cause he didnt train it because of his foot injury in March 2009, sorry but I find it funny, he didnt need it to win of course so fair enough and kudos for that, but please dont tell me he didnt do it because of injury a year ago, because how many times he has been doing the quad in his career anyway? In numbers. 5, 10? It is a bit like hiding behind our finger. We speak about a Joubert who cut his own foot months ago, and Lambiel with too many injuries and Plushenko with non existent knees and they keep doing it, it is not like the rest of men are injurefree. He just cant do it with some shiny exceptions. I guess we all have read the necessity of quad in Lysacek's 2009 interview to push the sport forward and how this perception changed within less than a year, after the nationals.

I know that link says he intended to add a double loop at the end of his quad triple combo but he didn't do that in the previous 3 competitions he competed in so I don't know how reliable that is.

He did a beauty of 4-3-2 in practice and it was actually scheduled in the paper for Lp if you were seeing the official vancouver site. Plushenko has confirmed it was planned. He had no flow to do it in the competition but he could have added it in lutz combo but I doubt this would have changed the outcome.

In the case of Lysacek vs Plushenko, Lysacek had cleaner jumps (as exemplified by the GOES), better footwork (as exemplified by the GOES), cleaner spins (GOE), harder spins (base value) and harder footwork, harder transitions ....

I agree with everything but the fact that they overlooked his flip edge and the second 3axel in terms of Goe doesn't make it a cleaner jump, and just for the record he does the same transition over and over. I think Plushenko did a 2axel instead of 3flip cause he would have gotten edge call and the marks for it would have been the same at the end. He did the flip in Rostelecom Cup, probably got negative feedback and then ditched it.

Not many people argue anyway about the Lp of Lysacek being better as an execution, people keep discussing the Lp over and over and yes it was Plush (or Mishin's whatever) fault he didnt have a better designed Lp, and not him having the best night plus his age and not being at his prime anymore but all and all even with all that the difference between them was 1.36. I agree with Blades that the medal was decided by Sp and not Lp and there I have many objections, par example the Goe in Lysacek's axel comparing to Plushenko's axel. Anyway Takahashi should have been first in Sp cause he rocked it even without a quad, with Plushenko second and I would place Lysacek third but not so close, if you sum what he got for Goe it is a bit much. Maybe I m biased but I would think the quad Plushenko, Lambiel etc did in sp is of a higher risk athletically than 3-3 that they both do in their sleep. , most men were doing 3-3 in sp anyway. It is just that Takahashi has so much everything else in this sp plus personality, that I never understood why he was 3rd there.

As for new skaters, since we speak for the whole packet, Brezina and Amodio for example need to fix their spins a lot, because I saw them quite few times this year and they aren't good. Chan's I dont remember because I was really overhelmed with his skate and flow and the quality of his steps at worlds but for example his jumps are not impressive nor explosive so none has the whole packet.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Seniorita, most of the points you make have more to do with the judging (application of the system), not theory/construction of the system, and that gets into a realm that is more subjective (I think Plushenko's PCS should be considerably lower, for example, certainly his Transitions, Choreography and Interpretation; and yeah - Takahashi really should've been first in terms of impact, but I suspect that what appeals about his skate is less COP than Lysacek's so the full benefit isn't reflected in the marks). The quad combo was a higher risk athletically, and there were nearly four points difference between Plushenko's 4-3 and Lysacek's 3-3. Do you think it should've been greater? If so, how much?

But Plushenko did the 3F at Rostelcom with positive GOE without an edge call, fwiw.

I agree that none of the skaters has displayed the entire package. I just think the skaters I mentioned WILL eventually display that.

[gmyers]

.... okay .... I'm not gonna argue this much longer as I feel like I'm pounding sand.

As for your next point, I'd argue that Chans 3-2-2 in his POTO program is nutsy hard with all the steps beforehand.

I wanna see everything too. But what you've been saying is that this one thing is making the quad disappear, and that's not true. Another example: Joubert backloaded five jumping passes in 2008, as did Buttle, and actually got a higher bonus than the Canadian skater. Buttle more than made up for it by doing three combos not two, harder footwork, harder spins, better everything, and he did a 3A-2-2 instead of a 2A-1 as one of his combos. I DON'T want to see mediocre quads at the expense of great spins AND great/hard footwork AND clean jumps AND loaded programs AND great programs. If it's not either or (and I think Brezina, Amodio, Kozuka, and yes, Chan will show us that), then terrific. But if it is, I know what side I'm on.

And my other point is that we've seen in this thread that technical elements (spins) weren't always treated as such. The reason for the Herculean advancement in jumps WAS because of the shunting of other aspects (footwork, spins, edging, etc). So, now those are making the advances we missed in the past.

But jumps are going backwards to make for better spins and steps. I wish there had been continued growth on the jump front but there has been none and now winners don't do quads. So it is not like spins and steps have gotten better and winners still do quads. Because they don't. I don't thinhk that is good. I wish Buttle Lysacek and Takahashi had the skills to do quads when they won their big events because now jumps have gone backwards.

All the young skaters you mentioned are seeing that quads aren't needed to win events and with the fact that they are very hard to do I don't see any of them who don't do it adding it and I would expect Kozuka to drop his attemps at doing one.

[seniorita]

Do you think it should've been greater? If so, how much?

It is obviously subjective, I dont disagree here but even the grand skaters who commented didnt seem to agree to what they look at by far, how could we? By their words exactly in commentary, Mr Dick Button said Plushenko had worse skating skills than ladies, Mr Hamilton said anyone can beat him in the ground, Mr Cousins was gashing at the same time in BBC for his superb sp and that his feet and edge control is amazing and his twizzles are to be envied by icedancers, Mr Eurosport guys didnt like the music choice and steps were too fast but wowed for 4-3 and 3 axel although one didnt get the double edge change, Mr Cousins was not satisfied at all with his Lp and didnt like it but Mr Eurosport Guys were ready to crown him after that, one of them said it is genious in construction and choreo, the french eurosport was saying PLushenko Oh La La, shall I add what they thought about Lysacek, the differences are big there also depending on who saw what. I havent seen the Mrs ex Peletier commentary, no reason to. They all seemed to agree in exhibition.

My conclusion is that I think plushenko for all the effort he did to comeback had not very well music choices nor choreographer, he should have chosen two generic russian warhorses for his programs if he wanted to win and that he was overscored in pcs because of his olympic gold status as lysacek was ovcerscored all year for his world gold status, but judges should have warned him earlier in pcs marks instead of showering him and then giving less in transitions, skating skills in sp than europeans where his sp was worse than olympics. And not give so much Goe in lysacek's axels . And I dont mind Urmanov winning now I ve seen both sp and lp
Now I go to see Argentina kicking Greece's butt

[ImaginaryPogue]

But jumps are going backwards to make for better spins and steps. I wish there had been continued growth on the jump front but there has been none and now winners don't do quads. So it is not like spins and steps have gotten better and winners still do quads. Because they don't. I don't thinhk that is good. I wish Buttle Lysacek and Takahashi had the skills to do quads when they won their big events because now jumps have gone backwards.

All the young skaters you mentioned are seeing that quads aren't needed to win events and with the fact that they are very hard to do I don't see any of them who don't do it adding it and I would expect Kozuka to drop his attemps at doing one.

Agreed. Jumps have gone backwards. Agreed, I want it all. I do. How awesome would Takahashi's program been if he had landed a fully rotated quad flip? BUT I still think you're being too reductive here.

[Tonichelle]

LOL, then why did Urmanov deserve to win?



Yeah, for the big jumps I don't find transitions to be necessary. Although, some of Matt Savoie's transitions into his Triple Axels were breathtaking.

Even for the easier Triples you don't always need transitions beforehand. It's all about the style and mood of the performance, and of course the music. With CoP these days, sometimes transitions are just superfluous extra movements that don't interpret the music at all. *cough* Evan Lysacek *cough*

youre right. From a performance aspect telegraphing isnt always a bad thing. Transitions are - however - one of the ways you gain points by the rules. To whine that plushenko didnt win because he didnt use them makes little sense. Neither man was all that inspiring.

[pangtongfan]

The fact is there are no consistent skaters these last few years with a quad other than Plushenko whose overall skating quality has regressed a HUGE amount and still would have won in Vancouver had he not been so COP dumb in his jump layout and had shaky jumps that day, and Van Der Perren who is....well Van Der Perren. Joubert isnt even consistent, and even when he is he has some level 1 or level 2 elements, strange COP-unfriendly jump layouts, and his presentation has gotten worse again ever since he left Browning.

If a Takahashi or Lambiel (even without a triple axel), or possibly even Abbott with a quad, were consistent you would never see quadless winners. That is not the case however.

[Blades of Passion]

The downgrade problem is a big reason why many stopped doing the Quad. Why go for an incredibly risky element that might end up giving you less points than an easy Double Axel?

They finally fixed the amount of points the Double Axel is worth and fixed the problem with how underrotated jumps are scored, so now we will see Quad attempts much more frequently.

But jumps are going backwards to make for better spins and steps. I wish there had been continued growth on the jump front but there has been none and now winners don't do quads.

The thing about jumps is, you can only go so far. At least until new technology is created to enhance skates. 2002 Olympics showcased the highest degree of difficulty for jumping among Men that I think we will see for very, very long time. Timothy Goebel's jump layout was crazy:

3Lutz
4Sal-3Toe
3Axel-2Toe
4Toe
-----------
3Axel
4Sal (this jump comes 75% of the way into the program...we've never seen anyone else attempt a Quad this late in a program)
3Flip
3Loop

Plusehnko's jump layout was crazy as well, with 2 Quads + 2 Triple Axels and insane jump combinations at the front of the program:

4Toe-3Toe-3Loop
4Toe
3Axel-half loop-3Flip
3Axel

CoP doesn't reward jump combinations like these anymore. They just instituted a new rule to give all jumps done in combination a 10% bonus, but that doesn't reward the varying degrees of difficulty in different jump combinations. If you do a 4Toe-3Toe-3Loop, that incredibly difficult 3Loop at the end of the combo gets the exact same bonus as if you had done a 3Loop-2Toe combination.

Difficult jumps done really late in a program aren't rewarded either. Goebel's 4Sal very late into the program doesn't get any more points than if it was done right after the half-way mark. I very much respect the risks Daisuke Takhashi and Takahiko Kozuka have taken with their jump layouts under CoP...they plan Triple Axels much later in their programs than every other competitor, even though it doesn't get you more points with the way CoP has been written.