Mclaughlin/Brubaker Split

Czisny wouldn't make a good pairs skater. She doesn't do salchow at all, and her 3T is one of her most inconsistent jumps. There would be even more pressure on her to complete jumps in pairs, so her subpar nerves would sabotage her as much in pairs as in singles.

OTOH, Rachael has all of the jumps, and she's a consistent performer, but there's no reason for her to give up a successful singles career for pairs.

Not to mention Alissa is WAY to tall for a pair skater, especially with the relatively short Rockne Brubaker.

Tinymavy15 said:

Not to mention Alissa is WAY to tall for a pair skater, especially with the relatively short Rockne Brubaker.

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Some girls in pairs are in the 5'4"-5'6" range, it may be harder for them but it doesn't mean they can't be successful in pairs. Ashley Cain just won the novice title in pairs and she's tall, and Amanda Dobbs is also doing well in pairs despite her height. I'm not sure it's as big a deal as some people think...

But aren't most people commenting on how short Brubaker is as well? Given that he split up with Miller because the height difference was getting too small, I can see that being a huge factor here.

Of course, none of the singles ladies will do pairs for various reasons anyway.

silverlake22 said:

Some girls in pairs are in the 5'4"-5'6" range, it may be harder for them but it doesn't mean they can't be successful in pairs. Ashley Cain just won the novice title in pairs and she's tall, and Amanda Dobbs is also doing well in pairs despite her height. I'm not sure it's as big a deal as some people think...

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its a big deal because rockne is relatively short.

silverlake22 said:

Some girls in pairs are in the 5'4"-5'6" range, it may be harder for them but it doesn't mean they can't be successful in pairs. Ashley Cain just won the novice title in pairs and she's tall, and Amanda Dobbs is also doing well in pairs despite her height. I'm not sure it's as big a deal as some people think...

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Their partners are over 6 feet tall. Rockne is of course quite a bit shorter than that, so it is a big deal. The girls who are taller tend to struggle with some of the pair elements anyway.

MOST figure skaters are shorter than average - I'm sure someone more versed in physics could explain better, but it's harder for the taller guys to jump and rotate steadily - slightly off center puts the effort more off kilter than it does for shorter people. There's also the gorilla- flea model for pairs since it's much easier for a big guy to throw and lift a tiny girl. Since the USSR started that model with success, there aren't as many pairs teams where the 2 are more evenly sized (like ice dancers). Babilonia and Gardner are examples of pairs of like height.

heyang said:

MOST figure skaters are shorter than average - I'm sure someone more versed in physics could explain better, but it's harder for the taller guys to jump and rotate steadily - slightly off center puts the effort more off kilter than it does for shorter people. There's also the gorilla- flea model for pairs since it's much easier for a big guy to throw and lift a tiny girl. Since the USSR started that model with success, there aren't as many pairs teams where the 2 are more evenly sized (like ice dancers). Babilonia and Gardner are examples of pairs of like height.

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Bradley and Verner have some of the best quads out there, and both are about 6' tall. Sure, they might not be very consistent skaters but the fact that they can do such incredible quads sort of makes your argument hard to believe

Alissa is definitely too tall for Rockne, and although Rachael isn't fat, I think she's too heavy for pairs.

UGH...here we go again...

silverlake22 said:

Bradley and Verner have some of the best quads out there, and both are about 6' tall. Sure, they might not be very consistent skaters but the fact that they can do such incredible quads sort of makes your argument hard to believe

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Note, my post started with the word Most - not All.

The average height of non-Asian males in non-impoverished countries is 5' 10". Very few well-known male singles skaters are above 6'. As per wiki, Evan was the only one that was listed at 6' 2" that I could think of.

If you consider how difficult it is to spin a taller top vs a shorter one, you can compare to the difficulty a taller skater would have in maintaining a straight axis in the air that is a key component of landing jumps consistently. Once a jump goes wonky in the air, it's harder to recover.

If you looked at the men's podium at Worlds this year, you would notice that all three medalists are very different heights/builds. Dai is about 5'5" and wiry, Patrick about 5'7" with a muscular build but small frame, and Brian about 5'10" with big bones and bulkier muscles. Yet they are all good skaters. None of them are tall, but all 3 are certainly very different sizes. In terms of what they are able to do, height doesn't seem to have too big of an impact.

As for ladies, there is also quite a range of heights, Yuna at 5'5", Joannie at 5'2", Kanako at 5'0", have all been very successful. Their heights are not only different but also their builds. For the past three Olympics, the winner of the OGM for ladies has been 5'5". If shorter is really better or easier, then how do you explain that?

Just quickly skimmed this thread. I am surprised by the lack of concern shown by some posters towards Keauna. Something obviously went very wrong this season - overtraining, growth sport, lack of proper support, poor preparation, are my top guesses. I find it so sad that a 17 year old has lost her passion for her sport and for competition. This is a prime example of why teenage athletes need to have a tight, close circle of people looking out for them. I am really questioning their coach and preparation ahead of the Games as well as after...

I hope Keauna explores her other interests, and I hope one day her passion for skating will be re-kindled - whether she returns to competition or skates just for fun. Very sad :disapp::no:

i love to skate said:

Just quickly skimmed this thread. I am surprised by the lack of concern shown by some posters towards Keauna. Something obviously went very wrong this season - overtraining, growth sport, lack of proper support, poor preparation, are my top guesses. I find it so sad that a 17 year old has lost her passion for her sport and for competition. This is a prime example of why teenage athletes need to have a tight, close circle of people looking out for them. I am really questioning their coach and preparation ahead of the Games as well as after...

I hope Keauna explores her other interests, and I hope one day her passion for skating will be re-kindled - whether she returns to competition or skates just for fun. Very sad :disapp::no:

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From my perspective, it seemed like the only thing that went very wrong this season was that they did not go to the Olympics. It seemed that before Nationals, M&B's intent was to absolutely continue on into the next quad. All signs were pointed to them making this year's Oly team without much of an issue. An unusually poor short program at Nat'ls abruptly changed that, but it wasn't the end of the world... For a young team experiencing their first Olympic-year season, a good support team could have helped them to overcome the disappointment and kept things in perspective. Whether or not Keauna had a strong enough support team around her, we can only speculate. One thing is for sure is that M&B were NOT a team that had experienced much disappointment in their young careers, so when they DID experience that disappointment, they really needed a close circle people there for them to help them deal with it properly.

I agree with you that this is very sad... Keauna is only 17... You don't see many skaters this age at this stage in their career leaving the sport all together. Usually pairs stick around much longer when they are just starting to scratch the surface of high level pair skating. Keauna did seem passionate, so it's obviously sad to see her quickly lose her love for the sport. I'm sure those close to her are very concerned about how she's feeling and why she feels the way she does.

To touch on some of your other points--- I thought one of the reasons they went to work with Nicks was so they could prepare well and NOT overtrain, so I can't see this being a matter of overtraining. I think up until that point she had also been coached somewhat by her mother, so getting away from that was probably supposed to be a help as well (it can't be easy to be coached by a parent as you get older).

But I agree that you have to somewhat question the coaching situation here... A great coach helps athletes set goals, helps them learn how to cope with disappointment, and motivates/inspires them. You have to wonder how a 17 yr old could be devastated enough from a competition (a very important competition, but one competition nonetheless) to leave the sport all together. Perhaps Nicks (and whomever else they were working with) wasn't quite a good fit, or maybe they just didn't have enough time to gel with him.

Of course Keauna is young and could return to skating at any time, but the longer she stays away, the harder it will get, especially in pairs where you obviously need a partner who is a good match (who knows how long Rockne will be available or if he would ever be in a situation where it would make sense to leave a new partner to return to a former one). But I really do hope she returns in some capacity. She is a very talented skater, and I have a hard time believing that she no longer likes this sport.

gold12345 said:

From my perspective, it seemed like the only thing that went very wrong this season was that they did not go to the Olympics. It seemed that before Nationals, M&B's intent was to absolutely continue on into the next quad. All signs were pointed to them making this year's Oly team without much of an issue. An unusually poor short program at Nat'ls abruptly changed that, but it wasn't the end of the world... For a young team experiencing their first Olympic-year season, a good support team could have helped them to overcome the disappointment and kept things in perspective. Whether or not Keauna had a strong enough support team around her, we can only speculate. One thing is for sure is that M&B were NOT a team that had experienced much disappointment in their young careers, so when they DID experience that disappointment, they really needed a close circle people there for them to help them deal with it properly.

I agree with you that this is very sad... Keauna is only 17... You don't see many skaters this age at this stage in their career leaving the sport all together. Usually pairs stick around much longer when they are just starting to scratch the surface of high level pair skating. Keauna did seem passionate, so it's obviously sad to see her quickly lose her love for the sport. I'm sure those close to her are very concerned about how she's feeling and why she feels the way she does.

To touch on some of your other points--- I thought one of the reasons they went to work with Nicks was so they could prepare well and NOT overtrain, so I can't see this being a matter of overtraining. I think up until that point she had also been coached somewhat by her mother, so getting away from that was probably supposed to be a help as well (it can't be easy to be coached by a parent as you get older).

But I agree that you have to somewhat question the coaching situation here... A great coach helps athletes set goals, helps them learn how to cope with disappointment, and motivates/inspires them. You have to wonder how a 17 yr old could be devastated enough from a competition (a very important competition, but one competition nonetheless) to leave the sport all together. Perhaps Nicks (and whomever else they were working with) wasn't quite a good fit, or maybe they just didn't have enough time to gel with him.

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I agree with a lot of what you said. Burnout is actually quite common among young athletes though. Tennis players, gymnasts, ballet dancers, figure skaters - these are all sports which have a larger burnout factor. It might be something to do with the solitary conditions that are required for training, when you compare it to a "team" sport.

There is a statistic floating around from a few years ago and it is something like 75% of kids quite organized sport by age 12! That is a crazy number. I was a competitive figure skater, and I know a lot of skaters that got burnt out around 15 or 16 and quit the sport all together. Some have never set foot on the ice again

You are right that we don't know forsure what caused Keauna to want to stop skating, but I think it was a lot of factors - and missing the Olympics could very well have been the straw that broke the camel's back. None the less, I have a feeling that skating hadn't been fun for her in quite awhile and this is why I had such a strong reaction after I read the posts and thought about the situation some more. There must have been visible signs as to what was going on with her and I can't help but think that not enough support was given to her.

Keauna is young, she probably realized that if she wants to start doing other things now would be a good time to quit skating. If she wants to go to college and live a more normal lifestyle, she can do that, but if she continued skating, it would be very difficult to do so.

i love to skate said:

You are right that we don't know forsure what caused Keauna to want to stop skating, but I think it was a lot of factors - and missing the Olympics could very well have been the straw that broke the camel's back. None the less, I have a feeling that skating hadn't been fun for her in quite awhile...There must have been visible signs as to what was going on with her and I can't help but think that not enough support was given to her.

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Might be onto something here.

Still, what's done is done. (The breakup, that is.)

The team was under more pressure than usual. Too bad it had to end the way it did, but...then again, she never said she was done for good. Anything is basically pure speculation...

That they did not expresss thanks to Mr Nicks in their official retirement statement the way they thanked their parents etc seemed odd to me. No words of parting? Is Rockne staying in California to look for another partner. I love mr nicks, but I do not think he was the right fit for them. He declared retirement years ago (pre-2006) and maybe wasn't fully dedicated to them. I don't know...but I think something about that Training environment broke her coupled with the Nationals disipointment and made her dread doing it again for another 4 years.

Tinymavy15 said:

That they did not expresss thanks to Mr Nicks in their official retirement statement the way they thanked their parents etc seemed odd to me.

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I thought so too. They could have merely forgotten to thank their coach/coaches, but even forgetting to do that would be telling, IMO. If they weren't loving the coaching situation, I wonder if they were considering any other coach for this upcoming season. Surely there are other pair coaches in the area. I had been somewhat skeptical about Nicks to begin with because he had been retired, and this was a young team looking to establish a long-term partnership, not just hold a couple months for the Olympics and be done (like Sasha, for example). Did Nicks really want to fully dedicate himself to a young team for several more years? Who knows. Publicly, M&B made it sound like they enjoyed working with him and felt comfortable, but we don't know how driven or inspiring he actually was with them behind the scenes. While motivation has to come primarily from within, you need a coach's enthusiasm and passion to motivate you as well. Was Nicks a good fit for them? Only they know for sure.

chuckm said:

Czisny wouldn't make a good pairs skater. She doesn't do salchow at all, and her 3T is one of her most inconsistent jumps. There would be even more pressure on her to complete jumps in pairs, so her subpar nerves would sabotage her as much in pairs as in singles.

OTOH, Rachael has all of the jumps, and she's a consistent performer, but there's no reason for her to give up a successful singles career for pairs.

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Flatt does have pairs experience as she skated pairs for several years while competing in singles.

...Juvenile silver medalist '03 and Intermediate champion '04 with former partner A Speroff.