Sasha & Rockne???

i love to skate · Jul 18, 2010

FlattFan said:
No it is not. If throw Sal or Loop are so much harder than Sal or Loop, then all the SBS jumps will be Sal or Loop instead of 2A and 3T.

Throw jumps are just different. Not harder, not easier.

Have you ever tried to land a throw?? It is so incredibly hard. Like I said you have to sync up the timing on the takeoff and the landings are different each time depending on the height, distance, and force you are throw with. There are so many more variables that go into a throw jump. For example, if there is too much space inbetween the guy and the girl right before the throw, if the guy is off balance on the takeoff, etc. This creates a very hard landing situation for the girl.

Lots of teams currently do/have done SBS Sals: M/T, D/D, Z/Z, L/H, J/B, M/B, etc.

Blades of Passion · Jul 18, 2010

i love to skate said:
Lots of teams currently do/have done SBS Sals: M/T, D/D, Z/Z, L/H, J/B, M/B, etc.

By "lots" what you mean is "not many". Compare it to the number of teams that have done Throw Sals...which is EVERY team in the modern history of pairs skating.

The fact is that all of these girls in pairs skating are doing pairs because they aren't as good at singles (ie - the jumps). Creating the lift and rotation for a jump by yourself is more difficult. Sure, learning throw jumps takes time and strength, but ultimately the man is doing part of the work and that makes it easier.

chuckm · Jul 18, 2010

Many skating commentators have remarked that throw jumps require that the lady have a very strong back in order to check the momentum of the throw and land smoothly on one foot. Sasha has suffered from compression fractures in her spine in the past, so it doesn't seem as if she would have the physical strength to become a pair skater.

i love to skate · Jul 18, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
By "lots" what you mean is "not many". Compare it to the number of teams that have done Throw Sals...which is EVERY team in the modern history of pairs skating.

No, I am pretty sure I said lots because I meant to say lots. If you look at the pairs long program from Worlds this year, of the thirteen pair teams who tried side by side triples: 7 tired SBS Salchows.

Blades of Passion said:
The fact is that all of these girls in pairs skating are doing pairs because they aren't as good at singles (ie - the jumps). Creating the lift and rotation for a jump by yourself is more difficult. Sure, learning throw jumps takes time and strength, but ultimately the man is doing part of the work and that makes it easier.

I really take issue with some of what you said here. Singles skating is not the be all and end all for every skater. :disapp: Many female pairs skaters start pairs at a very young age and never had big dreams of being a singles skater. If you are a pairs skater; you love to fly across the ice, you love to soar in the air, and you love the adrenaline rush that comes with being lifted 8 feet in the air. None of that comes in single skating.

If we are saying that throw jumps are easier than SBS, using this logic, why are there hardly any throw triple toes out there but a lot of SBS triple toes? The throw triple toe and throw triple sal both have the same base value as well.

Blades of Passion · Jul 18, 2010

I shouldn't have said "all". Regardless, there are many skaters who have migrated to pairs after it was apparent they couldn't do the jumps in singles. On the flip side, you won't find skaters who "weren't good enough" at pairs (too tall/too small for a suitable partner, sure) and then tried to do singles and had a successful career.

Pairs is full of skaters who didn't have strong enough jumps to be singles skaters. Not that there is anything wrong with it.

i love to skate said:
If we are saying that throw jumps are easier than SBS, using this logic, why are there hardly any throw triple toes out there but a lot of SBS triple toes? The throw triple toe and throw triple sal both have the same base value as well.

Throw toe-pick jumps aren't very attractive. Pointless to train that move rather than a throw Triple Sal.

PolymerBob · Jul 18, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
Pairs is full of skaters who didn't have strong enough jumps to be singles skaters. Not that there is anything wrong with it.

Yes ..... and singles is full of skaters who can't throw a girl 10 feet into the air.
Not that there is anything wrong with it.

dorispulaski · Jul 18, 2010

Well, actually there was one that I remember-Rudy Galindo. Granted, he had been US Champion in Sr pairs. He had been doing Jr Singles, but quit doing singles when he moved to seniors. After Kristi chose to compete only in singles, Rudy went back to singles. It took several years, but he later became US Champion in singles and placed 3rd in the World the same year, 1996, and retired to a successful pro career in singles.

Blades of Passion · Jul 18, 2010

PolymerBob said:
Yes ..... and singles is full of skaters who can't throw a girl 10 feet into the air.

This doesn't say anything about female skaters. You're speaking only of Men. Obviously a male skater has to have a large enough build to do pairs.

Any female skater who is pairs-size and able to do a Triple jump by themselves is perfectly capable of doing a throw Triple jump with the correct training, though.

Again, however, the inverse is not true. The female pairs skaters that you see doing throw Triple Loops aren't able to do that jump consistently by themselves and the female pairs skaters that we've seen attempting Quad Salchows wouldn't even come close to rotating that jump on their own without a partner throwing them.

If all of the girls who do pairs were capable of being technically competitive in singles, we'd see far less (good) pairs. Why? Because humans are inherently selfish. If someone had an equally promising career in both disciplines, they would almost always choose singles because then the glory is solely their own. Look at Kristi Yamaguchi.

As such, many female pairs skaters are in the discipline because the technical demands of singles skating were too great. Hence, Sasha Cohen is more likely to be able to compete in pairs at this point in her career than she is in singles. Whether or not she has the dedication to learn pairs technique (or if her body these days is strong enough to be competitive at all) is another discussion.

Blades of Passion · Jul 18, 2010

dorispulaski said:
Well, actually there was one that I remember-Rudy Galindo. Granted, he had been US Champion in Sr pairs. He had been doing Jr Singles, but quit doing singles when he moved to seniors. After Kristi chose to compete only in singles, Rudy went back to singles. It took several years, but he later became US Champion in singles and placed 3rd in the World the same year, 1996, and retired to a successful pro career in singles.

Rudy Galindo's highest placement in singles at Nationals while he was with Kristi was 8th (whereas she was a Junior WORLD Champion that same year). For him, Pairs skating was looking like the more favorable route. That's why he stopped trying to compete in singles. He only went back to it because his partner left him and he didn't have another option. He didn't stop doing pairs because it was too technically difficult for him.

i love to skate · Jul 18, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
If all of the girls who do pairs were capable of being technically competitive in singles, we'd see far less (good) pairs. Why? Because humans are inherently selfish. If someone had an equally promising career in both disciplines, they would almost always choose singles because then the glory is solely their own. Look at Kristi Yamaguchi.

You can also look at Jessica Dube. A VERY successful and promising singles skater and guess what? She decided to focus her training time on Pairs skating. She was absolutely able to be competitive in singles - she also has one of the best triple lutzes in the world.

Also, didn't the current World Bronze medalist only complete three triples in her long program this year? I have no doubt that if any of the top female pairs skaters decided to solely train in singles, they would surely be competitive in the world.

Blades of Passion said:
As such, many female pairs skaters are in the discipline because the technical demands of singles skating were too great

You keep presenting this statement as if it is a fact - which it is not.

FlattFan · Jul 18, 2010

Jessica Dube never has a consistent lutz to begin with. One of the best triple lutzes? People use "best" loosely nowaday. In that case, Mao Asada's triple lutz is godly. She could take off from the inside edge. ZOMG!

It's funny how someone could think a throw jump is so much harder. Look at Johnny Weir, it didn't take him years to master the throw triple axel. It maybe took him mere hours.

There are more stories about single skaters switching to pairs, not pairs switching to singles. It's like that for a reason.

i love to skate · Jul 18, 2010

FlattFan said:
Jessica Dube never has a consistent lutz to begin with. One of the best triple lutzes? People use "best" loosely nowaday. In that case, Mao Asada's triple lutz is godly. She could take off from the inside edge. ZOMG!

Her technique absolutely is world class. I never said it was consistent.

FlattFan said:
It's funny how someone could think a throw jump is so much harder.

Like I asked you before, have you ever tried to land a throw? If not, using your logic it's funny how someone who has never landed a throw could have an opinion on the difference between the two elements...

ETA: It seems that people think pairs is just a fall back career which is completely unfounded, IMO. At least here in Canada, our pairs skaters are highly respected and some of our most famous skaters. It's my favourite discipline and I can't wait to see what the upcoming year brings :biggrin:

Blades of Passion · Jul 19, 2010

i love to skate said:
You can also look at Jessica Dube. A VERY successful and promising singles skater and guess what? She decided to focus her training time on Pairs skating. She was absolutely able to be competitive in singles

A ridiculous statement. Jessica Dube was 8th at Canadian Nationals in singles the same year that she was 2nd in Pairs. She was clearly going to have more success as a pairs skater.

i love to skate said:
Also, didn't the current World Bronze medalist only complete three triples in her long program this year? I have no doubt that if any of the top female pairs skaters decided to solely train in singles, they would surely be competitive in the world.

Lepisto did a Triple-Triple combination in both the SP and LP that got +2 GOE and set the tone as her being a serious competitor. If any of the top female pairs skaters had shown that kind of jumping talent in their early years, their coaches likely would have made them practice in that discipline.

There might be a few skaters out there who had the talent for singles but instead decided on pairs, but mostly...no. The vast majority of pairs skaters are there because they didn't have enough talent when it comes to jumping.

i love to skate said:
Her technique absolutely is world class. I never said it was consistent.

Clearly her ability to do the Lutz isn't world class if it isn't consistent. LOL? Hence, she is able to fulfill the technical requirements of pairs skating easier than she is singles skating.

i love to skate said:
ETA: It seems that people think pairs is just a fall back career which is completely unfounded, IMO. At least here in Canada, our pairs skaters are highly respected and some of our most famous skaters.

Just a fall back career, no...the skater still needs to have enough of a passion for pairs skating. There is a correct body type that is required for pairs as well. But if you have that body type, and if you have the willingness to work with a partner, then it's simply easier to be technically competitive as a pairs skater than it is as a singles skater. More dangerous for a female, possibly, when you consider the possibility of the male dropping them during a lift...but not more difficult.

mousepotato · Jul 19, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
This doesn't say anything about female skaters. You're speaking only of Men. Obviously a male skater has to have a large enough build to do pairs.

Any female skater who is pairs-size and able to do a Triple jump by themselves is perfectly capable of doing a throw Triple jump with the correct training, though.

Again, however, the inverse is not true. The female pairs skaters that you see doing throw Triple Loops aren't able to do that jump consistently by themselves and the female pairs skaters that we've seen attempting Quad Salchows wouldn't even come close to rotating that jump on their own without a partner throwing them.

If all of the girls who do pairs were capable of being technically competitive in singles, we'd see far less (good) pairs. Why? Because humans are inherently selfish. If someone had an equally promising career in both disciplines, they would almost always choose singles because then the glory is solely their own. Look at Kristi Yamaguchi.

As such, many female pairs skaters are in the discipline because the technical demands of singles skating were too great. Hence, Sasha Cohen is more likely to be able to compete in pairs at this point in her career than she is in singles. Whether or not she has the dedication to learn pairs technique (or if her body these days is strong enough to be competitive at all) is another discussion.

You do realize that pairs skaters also have to jump on their own in both the short and free skate? Most doing triple-triples or atleast 2A-2Aseq. People who think skaters ONLY get into pairs as a last ditch effort to stay in skating are wrong; Some really do choose it because it's beautiful.

Back on topic...Sasha has injuries that could derail her "pairs" training. She wasn't even serious enough about training for her own Olympics this year much less another 4 years with a partner. If she gets injured landing a low triple, Rockne would kill her on a thow, where a low throw is still 4 feel off the ground. Pairs is something that should be taken seriously not a last resort way to keep yourself in skating.

I hope Rockne thinks twice or even three times about who he picks. He deserves better than her. I'm sure he doesn't just want to compete...he wants to get good enough to win and with her he won't be able to compete with China, Germany or Russia.

gold12345 · Jul 19, 2010

i love to skate said:
Have you ever tried to land a throw?? It is so incredibly hard. Like I said you have to sync up the timing on the takeoff and the landings are different each time depending on the height, distance, and force you are throw with. There are so many more variables that go into a throw jump. For example, if there is too much space inbetween the guy and the girl right before the throw, if the guy is off balance on the takeoff, etc. This creates a very hard landing situation for the girl.

Exactly.

Sasha has injuries that could derail her "pairs" training. She wasn't even serious enough about training for her own Olympics this year much less another 4 years with a partner. If she gets injured landing a low triple, Rockne would kill her on a thow, where a low throw is still 4 feel off the ground. Pairs is something that should be taken seriously not a last resort way to keep yourself in skating.

Pair skaters need to be extremely durable. I agree this would be a big concern, as would the whole "training seriously for four years" thing.

Blades of Passion said:
There might be a few skaters out there who had the talent for singles but instead decided on pairs, but mostly...no. The vast majority of pairs skaters are there because they didn't have enough talent when it comes to jumping.

The top pair girls in the world, for the most part, are NOT doing pairs because they "don't have enough jumping talent". They are doing pairs because they have a passion for pairs and started when they were very young! Who is anyone to say these skaters could not make it in singles if it was never their intention to be singles skaters in the first place? Pair skaters do not do the most difficult triples because they spend a great deal of time training the PAIR ELEMENTS, which a lot of people take for granted. Learning a triple twist with proper technique, for example, is just as hard as learning any solo jump, maybe even more difficult depending on the skater.

Blades of Passion said:
Regardless, there are many skaters who have migrated to pairs after it was apparent they couldn't do the jumps in singles. On the flip side, you won't find skaters who "weren't good enough" at pairs (too tall/too small for a suitable partner, sure) and then tried to do singles and had a successful career.

The number of skaters who have transitioned successfully from a full-fledged singles career to a world-class pairs career are next to none... especially when the skater is in her mid to upper 20s. Switching from either discipline to the other is a huge challenge, especially when you are no longer a young, fearless child. One of the big reasons we see fewer pair skaters trying singles is because there are so few pair skaters to begin with! The lack of pair teams worldwide is indicative of how difficult the discipline truly is and how many variables go into making a workable pair team.

More dangerous for a female, possibly, when you consider the possibility of the male dropping them during a lift...but not more difficult.

Both disciplines are difficult, but are very different. How can we compare which is harder than the other? They are just different, and every skater has different talents. Some skaters may be gifted in singles, but not cut out for pairs at all, and vice versa. It's not just about skills, it's about matching those skills to a partner and having a similar work ethic and an ability to work well with someone else.

Blades of Passion said:
Any female skater who is pairs-size and able to do a Triple jump by themselves is perfectly capable of doing a throw Triple jump with the correct training, though.

I disagree. Jumps and throws are VERY different. Having one does not mean the other will come, even with the proper training. There are girls who have their solo triples and switch to pairs and will never realistically get a throw triple. Every once in a while you will see a Novice or Junior pair girl with a solo triple... And they are sometimes not even close to obtaining a consistent throw triple, especially the older they are and the less pair experience they have.

tarotx · Jul 19, 2010

Not that I 100% believe it's happening but Sasha and Rockne are the ones who would be taking the risk and challenges. Sasha trying out as a pair skater isn't some affront to pair skating. Rockne and Sasha have the same coach and I can see where there could be some talk and attempts to see if there's potential. This is something we just have to wait out.

PolymerBob · Jul 19, 2010

The logic I use is as follows. The easier it is to do something, the more people do it. It is easier to sit on your couch, with a beer in one hand and a bag of potato chips in the other, then it is to run a marathon. So there are more couch potatoes than marathon runners. Make sense? If it is easier to skate pairs than it is to skate singles, we should have a surplus of pairs skaters ............ but we don't.

Apollo13 · Jul 19, 2010

PolymerBob said:
The logic I use is as follows. The easier it is to do something, the more people do it. It is easier to sit on your couch, with a beer in one hand and a bag of potato chips in the other, then it is to run a marathon. So there are more couch potatoes than marathon runners. Make sense? If it is easier to skate pairs than it is to skate singles, we should have a surplus of pairs skaters ............ but we don't.

Exactly!

These are the keys to pair skating, IMO - Guts, strength and trust. Guts for the lady, stength for the man and absolute trust in each other.

And ladies who have jump problems as single skaters will have jump problems as pair skaters!!!

i love to skate · Jul 19, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
A ridiculous statement. Jessica Dube was 8th at Canadian Nationals in singles the same year that she was 2nd in Pairs. She was clearly going to have more success as a pairs skater.

Yes, she finished 8th in 2005-2006 which was the year that Jessica started competing in singles "for the hell of it" - she was not serious about that discipline. She also competed in singles for the upcoming years, but often only in one portion of the event. She had been the Canadian Pre-Novice Champion, Novice Silver Medalist, and Junior Silver Medalist in the years prior. She also has two bronze medals from the Junior Grand Prix circuit. She clearly had success at both disciplines and decided to focus her attention on pairs - like I said before.

ETA: I am glad there are other posters who share my view on this subject :biggrin:

NYscorp6 · Jul 19, 2010

gold12345 said:
She says in this video from a month or two ago that she is done competing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oKW3gZ9UE8

So it really just seems like she came back for a run at the 2010 Olympics, but had no real intention to compete in non-Olympic years.

Thanks for that clip, it seems to me she wasn't declaring retirement though.

I've said before Sasha should have begun her comeback in 2009 for the 2010 Olympics.

As for skating pairs with Rockne I realize there are many obstacles and challenges for this to work, not to mention the commitment on both of their parts. I do think however they would make a stunning pair. Even seeing a "tryout" session would be amazing. Besides it is summer and one can daydream...........

Sasha & Rockne???

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