Sasha & Rockne???

gold12345 said:

I must have missed all these pair competitions with clean programs.

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I am talking only about the non-jump elements in pairs programs. The throws, lifts, twists (add in death spirals if you want too)...those are all very commonly completed without any significant error. If you look at the performances from last year, the 3 Chinese teams alone had a combined total of 10 LP performances where they did all of those elements without error. Compare that to the number of times every female skater in the World was able to skate a clean LP with a Triple-Triple combination (or 3Axel) and all of the difficult jumps...1 skate from Yu-Na (despite not doing a 3Loop I will let her Olympic LP count), 2 from Mao, 2 from Flatt (letting the UR issue slide), 1 from that Russian girl...so that's a total of 6. From every female in the World across an entire season. In comparison to 3 pairs teams being able to do all of their high level non-singles elements cleanly 10 times during the season.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

gold12345 said:

That would make sense because between the girl and the guy, six SBS jumps must be landed in a long program. And jumping flaws are usually very noticeable.

On the other hand, we'll often have little idea that a Level 4 death spiral had been dropped to a Level 1 or that a triple twist had received a bunch of negative GOE unless we look at the protocols. And while the throws are extremely important in pairs, the guy is probably not going to fall, so there really are only two chances of falling as opposed to the six chances to mess up the SBS jumps. This doesn't mean a throw is any easier than a solo jump.

I do agree this argument is silly. It's almost like comparing apples and oranges. A solo jump is different in a singles program than it is in a pairs program anyway (have to jump in close proximity to a partner, have to be in unison, etc).

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Although a man falling while throwing his partner is very rare...it is a tough element throwing a 90-100 pound girl in the air and Maxim Trankov can tell you just how tough it was when he fell at Worlds this year throwing Maria. With two individuals on the ice (performing two programs) you have double the chance of mistakes so it's like a single having to skate 4 times in a competition not just twice. That mean the chance of errors for the singles would go up by a lot and the chances of "clean" programs will go down.

Also as far as Yu-na Kim being a better skater than Xue Shen...lets see if Kim will still be competing at the Olympics into her 30s much less getting medals, my guess is she won't. She will probably be in the same group as Kristi, Oksana, Tara, Sarah and Shizuka...I hope she stays around for another Olympics and wins a medal but she would need to compete in 4 more Olympics to be up at Xue Shen's level, she has a little ways to go.

Also,

gold12345 said:

I do agree this argument is silly. It's almost like comparing apples and oranges. A solo jump is different in a singles program than it is in a pairs program anyway (have to jump in close proximity to a partner, have to be in unison, etc).

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Did you see the recent pairs professional competition where Arakawa and Lambiel did side-by-side Triple Toes perfectly in unision with a difficult transition leading into it (and they have no pairs training AFAIK)? IMO, jumps like Triple Toe and Double Axel are clearly not that difficult to do in unision if you are a strong singles skater. Hence, another link in my argument that many singles skaters could be good competitive pairs skaters if they really wanted to train for it, but not very many pairs skaters could be good singles skaters.

I realize what I've been saying in this thread sounds like I'm dissing pairs skaters, but I'm really not. Perhaps this metaphor fits - Rachmaninoff's 3rd concerto may be more difficult to play on the piano than a "simpler" song, but that doesn't mean it is the only thing we should listen to.

BTW, I agree that Yu-Na Kim's athletic achievements certainly can not be seen as superior to Xue Shen's at this point in time.

Blades of Passion said:

Also,



Did you see the recent pairs professional competition where Arakawa and Lambiel did side-by-side Triple Toes perfectly in unision with a difficult transition leading into it ...

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video clip, please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgEssEF0be8

I'm still so impressed by those jumps. They literally come out of nowhere and the unison is perfect! In fact, I've never seen an actual pair team execute a side-by-side Triple from such a short preparation and difficult transition.

That kind of stuff is what the "Transitions" mark is made for. But we rarely see it. The judges reward skaters for simply telegraphing their jumps with pointless movements. Incidentally, I think the Transitions mark should be removed from CoP. It's useless. The "Choreography" mark and the extra GOE you get on elements already covers Transitions (just put a bullet point in the Choreography program component that says - TRANSITIONS).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzM4LM8NsbY
Johnny did a throw triple axel. If you're a good single skater, there's no reason why you can't do throw or SBS jumps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8P-XpohHUU&feature=related
Johnny did a throw triple sal with Stephane Lambiel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcTPXS39XVQ
Yukari and Fedor did a SBS triple axel. I don't think learning to do it in unison is as difficult as someone's mentioned. Look at them. After a few tries, they did it in unison.

HUH? That exhibition was kind of weird, two great sigles skaters skating as two sharing the ice with another great skater. The spins didn't match and that jump was a hot mess. They didn't take off at the same time, the turns were not in unison and they didn't land at the same time. I'm not sure if what you saw but that was not good looking from a "pairs" stand point, it was fun to watch but not a good compairson. Unison in SBS jumps takes time that is what makes it hard, I'm glad the judged recognize that fact.

I love Arakawa, I wished she would have competed a few more years.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

ImaginaryPogue said:

While I think this whole argument is inherently silly, Blades point is that the flawed SBS jumps outnumbers the flaws on the the rest of the elements combined. I don't know if's true, but it's certainly believable.

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Yes, it is getting silly, and I don't think anyone will change their mind. But I'll add my two cents anyway...

Elite skating, like all elite-level sports, takes hard work and practice, and it is never easy; it is the skaters' skill that can make it appear easy. But singles, pairs and dance are all difficult, and while some skaters may theoretically be able to succeed in all these disciplines, the bottom line is that the skills required mean one has to specialize. If pairs skating is so easy, why aren't we seeing more people give it a shot? There are plenty of dancers and singles skaters who are the right physical type, and there are fewer people competing in pairs - so theoretically, success is more likely. That's not the case. And it should be pointed out that although some singles skaters have managed to do well in pairs, most people in the discipline made it their focus at a relatively young age.

A few more things:

1. Falls are more likely to happen when a skater has to land on a narrow blade - meaning jumps and throws. This does not make other elements easy' there is more to mastering pairs skating than doing SBS jumps, just as their is more to singles skating than jumping.

2. A mistake on a jump/throw will often result in a fall; that is a glaring error that is easy to notice. A mistake on footwork, a death spiral, a twist or a lift will make for a less attractive element, but it may not have the same impact on the flow of the program. Again, that doesn't make other elements easy, it just means that the implications of screwing them up are different. I mean, would anyone seriously like to argue that ice dance is easy?

3. As ILTS (I think) pointed out, pairs skaters have to perform a greater variety of elements and work on partnering, so it's not surprising that they can't spend as much time training their jumps.

Considering Sasha's competitive history, age, and past health issues, I think Rockne should look elsewhere for a partner. Good luck to him in finding one.

mousepotato said:

HUH? That exhibition was kind of weird, two great sigles skaters skating as two sharing the ice with another great skater. The spins didn't match and that jump was a hot mess. They didn't take off at the same time, the turns were not in unison and they didn't land at the same time. I'm not sure if what you saw but that was not good looking from a "pairs" stand point, it was fun to watch but not a good compairson.

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Your remark is what deserves a "HUH?". Arakawa and Lambiel did indeed take off, turn, and land in unison. What's more impressive is that they managed to do it straight out of that footwork, leaving them with no time to actually set up the jump. So, again, it was a more difficult side-by-side Triple Toe than I've ever seen a real Pairs team do in competition. The transition beforehand was so difficult.

They did two jumping passes in the program, you must have been blind during the first one and only saw the second jumping pass (where they weren't jumping side by side).

As for the spins, they weren't trying to match. They were just doing movements that looked really cool.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Buttercup said:

If pairs skating is so easy, why aren't we seeing more people give it a shot?

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Who ever said it was easy?

As for why more people don't do it, I already talked about that: humans are inherently selfish and will usually do what is best for themselves. Most people find the idea of being a successful singles skater to be more appealing than being a successful pairs skater; the glory is solely their own that way. Hence, far more people try singles than pairs.

FlattFan said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzM4LM8NsbY
Johnny did a throw triple axel. If you're a good single skater, there's no reason why you can't do throw or SBS jumps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8P-XpohHUU&feature=related
Johnny did a throw triple sal with Stephane Lambiel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcTPXS39XVQ
Yukari and Fedor did a SBS triple axel. I don't think learning to do it in unison is as difficult as someone's mentioned. Look at them. After a few tries, they did it in unison.

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I think it'd be more convincing if they were doing whole programs/multiple elements instead of individual elements. It's not that I don't want to believe you; I do, but I'm only shown clips of two skaters either doing SBS jumps OR throw jumps, without any extra elements (like throw jumps + SBS jumps or added footwork, etc) or a whole choreographed program.

Blades of Passion said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgEssEF0be8

I'm still so impressed by those jumps. They literally come out of nowhere and the unison is perfect! In fact, I've never seen an actual pair team execute a side-by-side Triple from such a short preparation and difficult transition.

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^ Their unison on the SBS jumps (esp. the first one) is definitely very impressive, but the rest of the program? Not so much.

Of course, you can argue that they haven't practiced together for an extended period of time, but that still wouldn't convince me.

Blades of Passion said:

Also,



Did you see the recent pairs professional competition where Arakawa and Lambiel did side-by-side Triple Toes perfectly in unision with a difficult transition leading into it (and they have no pairs training AFAIK)? IMO, jumps like Triple Toe and Double Axel are clearly not that difficult to do in unision if you are a strong singles skater. Hence, another link in my argument that many singles skaters could be good competitive pairs skaters if they really wanted to train for it, but not very many pairs skaters could be good singles skaters.

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Gloriosky! That video is mind-boggling. Lambiel and Arakawa do a stunning job of the jumps and the moves. Lambiel moves like a dancer, and the hip-hop style can't be easy for either of them. That guy blows me away. Shizuka looks so happy, elegant, and comfortable on the ice as well. What a treat.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

The thing is Blades of course 3toes would be easy for skaters like Arakawa and Lambiel, I mean I'd freaking hope so thats an easy jump for them. In contrast I suspect a lot of the pairs skaters went into pairs because they aren't necessarily the strongest jumpers. This doesn't mean though that I'm fully convinced that a single skater would have an easy time learning throws etc. I recall lots of falls on throws too. Maybe throws can be learned of course. Skaters like Yu-na and Arakawa would IMO have a hard time in pairs anyways because they are pretty tall.

aftertherain said:

I think it'd be more convincing if they were doing whole programs/multiple elements instead of individual elements. It's not that I don't want to believe you; I do, but I'm only shown clips of two skaters either doing SBS jumps OR throw jumps, without any extra elements (like throw jumps + SBS jumps or added footwork, etc) or a whole choreographed program.

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That's the whole point. They're single skaters who just happen to try something new. It didn't take them that long to master it. Johnny Weir isn't short and Lambiel isn't much bigger and definitely not as strong as the male skaters in pairs. They can do a few different throws just like that. So how hard can throws be if your single skating skills are good?

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

Tinymavy15 said:

Why? Xue Shen is just as flexoible and her legs and back are much stronger in order to land those throws. Both seem to have good stamina, but let's not forget that Xue Shen is like 15 years older than Yu-na. Xue Shen has done things Yu-na could never do ( and vice versa I guess) but I don't are where Yu-na comes out ahead.

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You just answered your own question--it's right there in the part that I bolded. You are welcome.

aftertherain said:

Oh.

How cold.

Way to compare a 19 year-old with a 31 year-old, love.

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Logic is cold. It's also an area in which I excel. Sorry, hun.

*pause*

For that matter, perhaps you should address mousepotato, not me, for she is the one who initiated the comparison. I, for one, never claimed anyone is better than anyone else; my post was more of an IFF statement. I hope you know what that means.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

prettykeys said:

You just answered your own question--it's right there in the part that I bolded. You are welcome.

Logic is cold. It's also an area in which I excel. Sorry, hun.

*pause*

For that matter, perhaps you should address mousepotato, not me, for she is the one who initiated the comparison. I, for one, never claimed anyone is better than anyone else; my post was more of an IFF statement. I hope you know what that means.

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I'd actually forgotten to add mousepotato's quote to the post. Guess I concentrated more on one post more than the other. Whoops.

Anyway, logic or not, both statements were uncalled for.



(And yes, I do know what that means. Hated geometry, by the way. And I don't think I'll ever take philosophy either. )

&Has anyone else noticed that this topic has veered waaaaay off-course? I, for one, am kinda curious about how the results of the Sasha&Rockne practice run turned out...

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

aftertherain said:

I'd actually forgotten to add mousepotato's quote to the post. Guess I concentrated more on one post more than the other. Whoops.

Anyway, logic or not, both statements were uncalled for.



(And yes, I do know what that means. Hated geometry, by the way. And I don't think I'll ever take philosophy either. )

&Has anyone else noticed that this topic has veered waaaaay off-course? I, for one, am kinda curious about how the results of the Sasha&Rockne practice run turned out...

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My comment was not uncalled for; it was very on topic for the people who think pairs skaters are sub-par to their single counterparts. For those who think a single skater whose time has passed can just pick up a new discipline and expect to be on the podium just because they had success a single. I used Yu-na Kim and Xue Shen as examples as they are both Olympic gold medalists in their specific disciplines this year.

I think the problem lies with armchair judging that goes on with eyes that aren’t properly trained to look for errors outside of falls and egregious errors that a child can spot. That is why we still see people using words like “clean”. There is no such thing anymore as not one skater has ever received perfect TES scores at any competition. Judges are always going to find something wrong with at least one element even if it looks “perfect” to spectators.

Also, just because two people try SBS jumps and it appears to look good, does not mean a judge would give a +3 on TES. Yes they get the job done but NOT up to the same level as the top pairs skaters. Doing it consistently is the key not just once on a youtube video.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

mousepotato said:

My comment was not uncalled for; it was very on topic for the people who think pairs skaters are sub-par to their single counterparts. For those who think a single skater whose time has passed can just pick up a new discipline and expect to be on the podium just because they had success a single. I used Yu-na Kim and Xue Shen as examples as they are both Olympic gold medalists in their specific disciplines this year.

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I still think that that particular statement was uncalled for. If you'd have said that second sentence instead of insinuating that someone had a brain dysfunction for not having the same opinion as you do, I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

mousepotato said:

I think the problem lies with armchair judging that goes on with eyes that aren’t properly trained to look for errors outside of falls and egregious errors that a child can spot.

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I specifically looked at the judging protocols when I went through and did my count. Your argument is null and void.

Re: Sasha & David??? LOL

In my opinion, one factor on whether a singles skater can succeed in pairs depends on their body type. In general, female pair skaters seem to be shorter. Someone on the tall side like Shizuka may not be so successful (it did look awkward when she did that pair routine with Lambiel). They could get a taller male partner but it would still be much easier for the man to lift up someone more petite. The one thing pair skating and single skating shares is mental toughness. The thing about Sasha is that she's always seems so fragile and female pair skaters have to be extremely resilient and tough since they run the risk of falling on failed throws and lifts.