Who among the Ladies has a 3-3 this year?

[Blades of Passion]

The protocols are what matters in a competition - more than the personal opinion of a fan...

You mean the opinion of someone who knows what they are talking about and has done these jumps before?

The technical panel decides if the jump should be downgraded - this is not the judges responsibility. The judges job is to decide how well that element was done.

Yes, I know how CoP works dear. But the point is that every judge should have the same amount of knowledge as any tech specialist. Otherwise, what business do they have in evaluating technical elements? Therefore any judge who saw that video and tried to defend the jump as completed one is a judge I would find to have a poor opinion.

So where are all the fluff pieces on the bravery of singles skaters, the dangers of singles skating, etc?

The definition of a fluff piece is something that draws extra attention or creates extra sympthy for a certain subject. The disciple of singles skating as a whole doesn't need fluff pieces to draw in extra fans. Pairs and Ice Dancing do, though.

Why are all the major injuries suffered in singles skating not reported/caught on camera, etc and the pair injuries are?

Do you have a World-wide injury report list that says pairs skaters have suffered more major injuries than singles skaters? I'm pretty sure you don't, nor do I. Therefore, I am telling you my experiences as a skater. I have seen singles skaters taken out of practice on stretchers numerous times and the careers of singles skaters are ended by injury all the time.

FYI, I already said before that Pairs has the potential of more serious injury. But that doesn't mean the people who do it require more bravery. You trust your partner, just as you trust other drivers won't swerve into you when you're on the road. A singles skater worries about their big jumps every single time they go into them and it most certainly takes bravery to have enough focus to vault yourself into the rotation and land cleanly. Pairs skaters I know haven't told me they are deathly afraid of doing lifts every time they go into them.

[i love to skate]

You mean the opinion of someone who knows what they are talking about and has done these jumps before?

You aren't a judge or a tech specialist, so yes even though you have done these jumps, your opinion doesn't matter at all in a competition.

Yes, I know how CoP works dear. But the point is that every judge should have the same amount of knowledge as any tech specialist. Otherwise, what business do they have in evaluating technical elements? Therefore any judge who saw that video and tried to defend the jump as completed one is a judge I would find to have a poor opinion.

That is the whole point of the COP though - to put the technical content in the hands of a separate panel and let the judges pay attention to the quality of the elements and the presentation and performance. The two panels are focused on different areas of the performance.

Again, if you have such a problem with the tech specialists or judging...then go do something about it! Go devote your time and become a judge. It does no good to say that the judges don't know what they are talking about - when they have been doing this volunteer job for years and years, are former skaters, have taken multiple courses, and done tons of trial judging. They would not be judging the highest level competitions, if they did not have the skills and knowledge.

If a referee in another sport makes a tough call that is debatable, do you say that they have absolutely no idea what they are doing?

The definition of a fluff piece is something that draws extra attention or creates extra sympthy for a certain subject. The disciple of singles skating as a whole doesn't need fluff pieces to draw in extra fans. Pairs and Ice Dancing do, though.

Maybe in the States it needs to draw in fans but definitely it is not this way everywhere. Pairs was the first discipline to sell out at the Olympics and a lot of Canada's most well known figure skaters are pairs skaters and ice dancers.

[Blades of Passion]

You aren't a judge or a tech specialist, so yes even though you have done these jumps, your opinion doesn't matter at all in a competition.

You don't need to be a judge or a tech specialist on the sitting panel at a competition to have an opinion, LOL!

Obviously the calls made in competitions are what stand in the books but the fact is that the performance we were talking about was at a National competiton where judges (/tech panel) are notoriously less critical than at World-level competition. At the very least, the fact stands that the move has never been done in International competition.

That is the whole point of the COP though - to put the technical content in the hands of a separate panel and let the judges pay attention to the quality of the elements and the presentation and performance. The two panels are focused on different areas of the performance.

Incorrect. The point of the technical panel is to FORCE a single option that all of the judges must measure. Different judges might feel differently about what level a certain element should be scored and you logistically can't have all of the judges submitting their scores into the computer like that (well, you could, but it would take far too long).

Aside from that, a judge still needs to know what a move looks like if they are a good judge. How are you qualified to give a proper +GOE score to a Level 4 footwork sequence if you do not understand the basis for what a Level 4 footwork sequence is? How do you give a proper +GOE score to a Level 4 spin if you do not understand the basis of what a Level 4 spin is? Two different combination spins that are Level 4 can still have different amounts of difficulty to them. Some positions or spin transitions are more difficult than others and if a judge doesn't recognize that, then they would again be a bad judge in my book.

Again, if you have such a problem with the tech specialists or judging...then go do something about it! Go devote your time and become a judge. It does no good to say that the judges don't know what they are talking about

Are you kidding me?

People speaking out against judging decisions they disagree with is the entire reason we even have the CoP judging system right now.

If a referee in another sport makes a tough call that is debatable, do you say that they have absolutely no idea what they are doing?

No, I wouldn't, but the video we are talking about is not "a tough call". It is a clearly underrotated jump. You can see that without slow-mo. If you can't see that and it's your job to be a tech specialist, then yes, you don't know what you are doing (or you are being lazy).

[i love to skate]

You don't need to be a judge or a tech specialist on the sitting panel at a competition to have an opinion, LOL!

Obviously the calls made in competitions are what stand in the books but the fact is that the performance we were talking about was at a National competiton where judges (/tech panel) are notoriously less critical than at World-level competition. At the very least, the fact stands that the move has never been done in International competition.

1st paragraph: Obviously you can have an opinion (as we all do), but that opinion does not have any influence in/during a skating competition.

2nd paragraph: Why are we even having this discussion then? I originally said that protocols are what matter in a competition as they show what elements were completed. This is why I said Joey Russell completed the element - because it is recorded that he did in fact complete that element. Then you said that protocols "don't matter" and it is your opinions and using your brain that mattered...

Are you kidding me?

People speaking out against judging decisions they disagree with is the entire reason we even have the CoP judging system right now.

The 2002 scandal is the reason why we have the new scoring system.

People had been talking about the previous scoring system for decades and the problems with it and nothing was done about it. It took a huge scandal to change things.

[prettykeys]

-Protocols are clearly not the only thing that count, and anyone can have a valid opinion, they don't need to be a judge.

-Joey Russell's 2A-3Lo looks very close to me--not obviously underrotated--so I'm willing to go with the protocols on this one, with the disclaimer that it was a Nationals.

-Pairs ladies are probably truly the bravest. They are at risk for some of the most severe injuries, and they can happen to them without them being in control (e.g. a slip or momentary loss of focus by the male partner.)

-All judges should be able to judge whether a jump was underrotated or not, even if it's not their main responsibility, because it should still matter when considering GOE.

-Fluff pieces: Not necessarily for skaters or disciplines that "need extra fans." Michelle Kwan had fluff pieces; she didn't need extra fans, did she? I've seen fluff pieces on hockey, snowboarding, soccer, Madonna, etc...and I would definitely not be surprised if for casual viewers wondering which skating event to watch at an Olympics, Pairs is the most appealing/popular sport. The best Pairs have some of the most thrilling moves.

[Blades of Passion]

Why are we even having this discussion then? I originally said that protocols are what matter in a competition as they show what elements were completed. This is why I said Joey Russell completed the element - because it is recorded that he did in fact complete that element. Then you said that protocols "don't matter" and it is your opinions and using your brain that mattered...

Just because something is in the books that doesn't mean you agree with it. It just is what it is. Unless ISU (or in this case the National federation) revokes it.

Something so minor as whether or not a combination jump from the 6th-ranked Canadian male (who wouldn't have been on the podium at that competition anyway) was fully rotated or not...that's not going to draw much attention. If it had been something like the first Quad Loop to possibly get ratified, though, I guarantee you it would not have been ratified with that amount of underrotation.

The 2002 scandal is the reason why we have the new scoring system.

People had been talking about the previous scoring system for decades and the problems with it and nothing was done about it. It took a huge scandal to change things.

It was a scandal because the North American media was so vocal. People were speaking out, loudly. More so than ever before.

-Fluff pieces: Not necessarily for skaters or disciplines that "need extra fans." Michelle Kwan had fluff pieces; she didn't need extra fans, did she?

Fans want to hear more about their favorites.

[gmyers]

North American media does matter a lot to the ISU. That is why the changed the system. The european and eastern european media outrage over the lack of quad from 4 recent worlds and olympic mens champions. totally meaningless to the ISU.

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. Blades, I wouldn't argue that Ice Dance and Pairs needs fluff pieces to do well in CANADA. I'm pretty confident women's remains our weakest discipline and correspondingly, interest in it is lower. I'd also point out that I doubt China needs fluff pieces for pairs; nor Russia. And I know you're not arguing that singles skaters don't get fluff pieces, so really, I find this entire point specious and devoid of meaning. But I'm sure I'm misinterpreting you.

2. gmyers, do you have any evidence to support your statement, or is that just a gut feeling based on you're "rah-rah quad, boo boo Canada and USA" mentality?

3. Are jumps ratitifed in National competitions keyed into ISU record books as "firsts?"

[i love to skate]

Just because something is in the books that doesn't mean you agree with it. It just is what it is. Unless ISU (or in this case the National federation) revokes it.

Again, that was my point. It is in the protocols, Joey Russell completed the jump - it is what it is. Just because you say it was UR does not mean that it was nor does it reverse the decision that was made on the ice.

It was a scandal because the North American media was so vocal. People were speaking out, loudly. More so than ever before.

The media are not fans speaking out though and they carry far more power than posters on a message board. I would argue it was the size of the scandal in 2002 that prompted the outrage. The media has been very critical in the past and fans have spoken out as well (Stojko, B/K, the "foot tapping" incident, etc). Little to no changes were made then...

The ISU just decided that the 2002 scandal was too large and widespread to recover from, so that's when getting the new system in place became the priority.

ETA:

I would definitely not be surprised if for casual viewers wondering which skating event to watch at an Olympics, Pairs is the most appealing/popular sport. The best Pairs have some of the most thrilling moves.

I totally agree. To two Olympic practices, I dragged along my boyfriend and a male friend. They were utterly bored throughout Mens, Ladies, and Dance that they resorted to playing Monopoly on their Blackberries. However, as soon as the pairs skaters came on and they saw the throws, lifts, and twists the words out of their mouths were: "Holy S***", "Those girls are crazy!", "How is the possible???"

[dorispulaski]

I had heard that Cinquanta had this COP scoring system already funded (but not yet completed) and was itching to use it-the 2002 scandal gave the ISU a chance to do something that some people within it already wanted to try. Does anyone know whether that is true?

[i love to skate]

I had heard that Cinquanta had this COP scoring system already funded (but not yet completed) and was itching to use it-the 2002 scandal gave the ISU a chance to do something that some people within it already wanted to try. Does anyone know whether that is true?

I had heard that the Canadian federation had been pushing for a new system to be in place for awhile, but the ISU would not listen. I found this article on the implementation of the new system http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2004/...ore040609.html


"Ted Barton has spent the last 21/2 years helping design the new system with video technology".

The article was written in 2004, so it seems that it was a pretty recent development. From reading another article, the new system was proposed to congress in 2003.

[Blades of Passion]

Blades, I wouldn't argue that Ice Dance and Pairs needs fluff pieces to do well in CANADA. I'm pretty confident women's remains our weakest discipline and correspondingly, interest in it is lower. I'd also point out that I doubt China needs fluff pieces for pairs; nor Russia. And I know you're not arguing that singles skaters don't get fluff pieces, so really, I find this entire point specious and devoid of meaning. But I'm sure I'm misinterpreting you.

My point was that singles skating as a whole doesn't benefit from fluff pieces about the dangers incurred within the sport to draw interest. Breaking your foot from a jump landing or being knocked out after a hard backwards fall isn't as spectacular as a pair skater suffering some kind of injury as a result of being dropped.

Again, that was my point. It is in the protocols, Joey Russell completed the jump - it is what it is. Just because you say it was UR does not mean that it was nor does it reverse the decision that was made on the ice.

*sigh*, you're not getting the point. Yes, the books at a National Championships say it was completed and nothing I say will change those results. In terms of ultimate truth, though, I'm going to trust my eyes rather than the lazy call of a tech specialist who not being that critical of a competitor whom was clearly not going to make the podium anyway. When this jump combination happens in International competition we can talk. It's not like being the first to do a 2Axel-3Loop combination in competition is some kind of super glorious feat anyway; feels to me like you're just blindly defending a Canadian skater out of Nationalism. It's like the Yu-Na/Mao hoards who can't handle criticism of anything their countrymen do either. :sheesh:

[i love to skate]

*sigh*, you're not getting the point. Yes, the books at a National Championships say it was completed and nothing I say will change those results.

I don't think you are getting the point. This is what you said:

It was underrotated. So, nope, nobody has done a 2Axel-3Loop combination in the history of the sport yet (AFAIK).

When in fact it was deemed not to be UR in the protocals. It is fine if you don't agree with the decision, but somebody has done this combination - according to the protocals! You simply can't throw them away and say that a skater did not complete an element!

It's not like being the first to do a 2Axel-3Loop combination in competition is some kind of super glorious feat anyway; feels to me like you're just blindly defending a Canadian skater out of Nationalism. It's like the Yu-Na/Mao hoards who can't handle criticism of anything their countrymen do either. :sheesh:

You have got to be kidding. First of all, I don't even like Joey Russell's skating and second, I believe I said the jump was a close call and that it was not perfect. I did not say that the jump was the most beautiful or perfect element I have ever seen. But yes, I am blindly defending a Canadian skater...

My issue was the fact that you were totally disregarding the protocals at first, saying "they are not what counts" and denying that the jump had ever been completed in a competition. Yes, it was a National competition but you did not say that it had to be an international competition in your first couple posts. Then you changed your tune and said obviously the protcals show what jumps were recorded, they are what stands, and "it is what it is" etc.

[Blades of Passion]

Look, here's the bottom line - if that jump combination was under scrutiny of being an important first in the history of figure skating, it would not have been ratified. As it was simply just a random jump combination by a random skater at a relatively non-important event, it didn't get looked at carefully.

The whole point I was trying to make about the 2Axel-3Loop being such an odd combination is that the combination is quite difficult, but at the same time it's not something anyone ever attempted in 6.0 judging because most people who are capable enough with a 2Axel-3Loop combination are likely going to be able to do a 3Toe-3Loop or 3Sal-3Loop, which was infinitely more worthwhile under 6.0 since it comes with the marquee of "TRIPLE-TRIPLE!"

The 2Axel-3Toe combination was never really attempted in 6.0 scoring after the 80's either because it wasn't an actual Triple-Triple and therefore it didn't matter all that much. With CoP we have seen many 2Axel-3Toe combinations but not any (objectively successful ) 2Axel-3Loop combinations. This is for several reasons: (1.) 2Axel-3Loop isn't worth using in the Short Program because you want to do the most difficult combination you reliably can in the SP, (2.) 2Axel-3Loop probably isn't worth the risk of attempting in the LP instead of a much easier 2Axel-3Toe and, since the 2Axel-3Loop probably also isn't worth using in the SP, anyone who is capable of doing 3Loop as the second jump of a combination is likely going to stick to training a 3xxx-3Loop combination for their LP so that they can keep their timing consistent between both the SP and LP.

[blue dog]

With all do respect, can either of you explain how this answers the question that the title of this thread asks for?