Surprising that Fumie Suguri never won Worlds

Blades of Passion said:

Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind if every skater used the same music and wore the exact same costume, right?

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What can I say? I'm a great fan (and public mourner) of the old compulsory dances. As is well known here, I think.

Skating is about EVERY movement and expression that happens on the ice, juxtaposed with music.

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It depends about whether you are talking about exhibitions or competitions. Competitions are about the rules. And the rules change every year, nearly. However, as far as music & skating, the art in it is the ability to involve the audience in the performance, and is especially art-ful when the performer makes the viewer see/feel things in the music they didn't feel or see before. That's why I asked if you had ever seen either Irina or Fumie skate live. Fumie live is about as uninspiring as a Wonder Bread sandwich with Saltine filling, even when she is skating her best. Both Irina & Michelle own their audiences, even when they are not skating particularly well. When Fumie moves her arms around, you see Lori Nichol in the background moving her arms into that position. You don't say to yourself, "Wow, that's what Beethoven was getting at. He'd love this!"

BTW, if you were only watching their feet there are still numerous choreographic moves Fumie performed (beautifully to the music, if such a thing actually matters at all anymore) that you overlooked.

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No, I noticed them. They just didn't matter to me, particularly.

BTW, did you think Fumie should have beaten Michelle in the LP, because she would have had to do that to win this Worlds, based on the ordinals, regardless of how you judge Fumie versus Irina. And I thought Michelle kicked her butt both artistically and technically. Fumie's one area of technical superiority to Michelle in this program was the speed in her final 2-foot spin.

lavender, I was being careful about whether Sasha should have scored ahead of Michelle because I didn't remember her SP and whether she did a good job with it. Sasha has from time to time skated some great SP's, and I'd hate to be caught assuming that a perfect Sasha shouldn't beat a flawed Michelle sometimes without re-viewing the program.

dorispulaski said:

When Fumie moves her arms around, you see Lori Nichol in the background moving her arms into that position. You don't say to yourself, "Wow, that's what Beethoven was getting at. He'd love this!"

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Often times I would agree, but in this performance I believe Fumie truly became one with the music. Everything she did felt like it was coming straight out of her soul to me. Likely because the competition was taking place in her home town and it was the first time she ever had the chance at a medal on the World stage. She was inspired to greatness.

dorispulaski said:

BTW, did you think Fumie should have beaten Michelle in the LP, because she would have had to do that to win this Worlds, based on the ordinals, regardless of how you judge Fumie versus Irina. And I thought Michelle kicked her butt both artistically and technically. Fumie's one area of technical superiority to Michelle in this program was the speed in her final 2-foot spin.

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I already said I think Fumie should have beaten Michelle, silly!

I totally disagree with you about Fumie not being better technically than Michelle in any area. Fumie's Lutz and Flip got WAY more height than Michelle's did. Especially Fumie's second Lutz in the program, which was gorgeous; Michelle's second Lutz barely got off the ice and was barely rotated, coming down 1/4 turn short on the landing.

Overall Michelle deserved a higher tech mark because of Fumie doubling out on the Loop, though. I give Fumie the win on the artistic mark. It's rare moment when I put another skater ahead of Michelle on the artistic mark, but I truly believe Fumie deserved it at 2002 Worlds. Such a mesmerizing performance. Michelle still definitely deserved to beat Irina on the presentation mark, but it wasn't one of Michelle's best performances. A lot of that has to do with the program itself; it's a very good program but it isn't a masterpiece like so many of her other programs are. Fumie's program was stronger for me and it's the best performance she has ever given.

dorispulaski said:

lavender, I was being careful about whether Sasha should have scored ahead of Michelle because I didn't remember her SP and whether she did a good job with it. Sasha has from time to time skated some great SP's, and I'd hate to be caught assuming that a perfect Sasha shouldn't beat a flawed Michelle sometimes without re-viewing the program.

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oh okay.

lavender said:

Michelle lower than 3rd with a clean short and with Rach...no I don't think so. Even with the fall out of the lutz combo it was still a good skate. There was just too much good about Michelle's skating even with the one bobble.

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Indeed. Under CoP that mistake would not have cost her so much. Under 6.0 the rule said that the SP had to include a combo. Since the jumps technically were not a combination, she failed to complete all the requirements and received marks in the low 5's.

Sasha too, missed one element, a fall on the double axel. Personally I would have given Sasha lower tech scores as a fall seems worse than a fall-out/sequence, but I guess under 6.0 it didn't make that much of a difference. If you missed an element, it was missed. Sasha's presentation scores were slightly lower than Michelle's (the freshman dues) and there is how Sasha ended out lower than Michelle after the SP.

BoP, you still haven't told me whether you ever saw Irina live, Michelle live and Fumie live in competition.

BTW, here are the performances of Yoshie & Sasha. Neither is up to the level of Irina, Michelle & Fumie at this competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgvqUwtoyDg

Sasha SP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPqxEe4sWbg

Sasha LP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn6UAWSrCwo

Yoshie Onda SP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJErN3z9tHk

Yoshie Onda LP

dorispulaski said:

BoP, you still haven't told me whether you ever saw Irina live, Michelle live and Fumie live in competition.

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I don't believe I've ever seen all of them at the same time. I think 2005 Worlds is the last time they were all even at a single event together? But I most definitely wasn't in Russia that year. Irina wasn't at 2003 Worlds.

Irina does not gain anything live vs. high quality video. Nobody does, in my experience. Unless you count the warm-ups and practice sessions, in which you get a much better view of all the skaters than a video will give you. Once you've seen competitions live and then watched the video later, and ditto for seeing your own skating and other practice mates via video, you gain an exact sense of the speed people are carrying over the ice when you see skating on (high quality) video.

The only other factor is succumbing to group hysteria after certain performances. Personally, I don't. I choose who to give standing O's to for myself! Hah. I was even tempted to boo at everyone around me after both of Lysacek's performances at 2009 Worlds. The predominantly American audience going nuts was disgustingly knee-jerk. I must say it's rather clever how he hides his awful 3Axel technique by doing that jump ONLY right in front of the boards where the judges are sitting, though. The chance of the old fogies craning their necks to see his feet? Not that high.

Freshman dues is not why Sasha's presentation was lower than Michelle...at least not that time.

Blades of Passion said:

Irina does not gain anything live vs. high quality video. Nobody does, in my experience...

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My technical eye is not as practiced as yours, but I have to TOTALLY disagree about Irina. When I saw her on TV I always thought she was quite graceless, and I could not understand how she could even be mentioned as a rival to Michelle.

But the first time I saw Irina live -- WOW! It was a cheesefest starring Michelle, and the audience was prepared to go bonkers for their Kween. But on that occasion Michelle was ho-hum and Irina tore the roof off the place, wining the audience over completely.

I agree that some skaters look about the same in person and on TV. Michelle and Sasha, for instance. There are a few -- Jenny Kirk? -- whose skating actually looks better on television, IMHO.

Well something like a cheesefest is different. Irina lets loose more in that kind of environment. Which is why I think her 2006 SP is her best program ever; she is able to throw herself into the performance and doesn't have to alter her personality at all to match the music. Irina is absolutely not an actress and that's why most of her programs fail for me - she gets bogged down trying to interpret something outside of her comfort zone or simply fails to have any interpretation at all. I don't feel she is someone who really has any interest in trying to transform a piece of music into a visual representation on the ice or form a narrative with her performance. She likes skating for the pure energy of it and the awesome feeling of doing jumps and spins.

As for TV, it can vary depending on the angles and how they edit. Film and skating are my two areas of expertise in life, though, so I guess it's just normal for me to easily differentiate.

Tinymavy15 said:

Indeed. Under CoP that mistake would not have cost her so much. Under 6.0 the rule said that the SP had to include a combo. Since the jumps technically were not a combination, she failed to complete all the requirements and received marks in the low 5's.

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I dont think the placement would have been any different under 6.0. Michelle would have gotten -2 in GOE for stepping out of the combination and lost an additional 1.3 for not having the double toe on the end. Add some GOE for Fumie and Michelle loses 4 points to Fumie on the combo alone under COP and I doubt she makes that up on everything else considering how strong Fumie's short program was. And forget Irina, her short was devastating and Michelle wouldnt have beaten it even clean. Irina's far worse short program at the Olympics was only behind Michelle by .1 and many questioned even that.