Johnny Weir article...o dear o dear

PCS is filled with each judge's subjectivity and prone to be affected by prejudice.
GOE is also like that, but still TES may be a little more objective than PCS.

Then, TES wise (SP and FS added) the order was:

Plushenko ... 133.81
Lysacek ..... 132.87
Weir .......... 122.57
Takahashi ... 122.38
Chan ......... 120.72
Kozuka ...... 120.54
Lambiel ...... 119.97

Blades of Passion said:

This is such a stupid argument. He had transitions on 3 of his jumping passes. Evan Lysacek's choreography was not much more complex, only in the footwork (which looked ugly and he should have been docked in the Interpretation score as a result). Patrick Chan had the most complex choreography of the event but his program was bland and his interpretration is robotic, plus he fell on a jump and stepped out of another in the LP and didn't skate well at all in the SP.

The results of the 2010 Olympics for the Men should have been:

1. Daisuke Takahashi
2. Takahiko Kozuka
3. Johnny Weir

Evan Lysacek's artless LP should have gotten no higher than a 6 out of 10 for Interpretation and definitely a much lower score for skating skills, Plushenko's SP deserved a 5 out of 10 at best on that mark (and a lower skating skills score than MANY other competitors for both the SP + LP), Lambiel was a shadow of himself in general at this event, and Chan made plenty of mistakes and didn't reach the emotion level that my top 3 choices did either.

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With the exception of Dai your choices do not impress me and seem wrong.
How typical from such a perennial Evan basher.
I recall you predicted Evan would finish 12th in Vancouver. You couldn't have been more wrong about that.

Don't you have even the slightest clue about what it means to compete and which athletes are capable of rising to the top under pressure?

janetfan said:

I recall you predicted Evan would finish 12th in Vancouver. You couldn't have been more wrong about that.

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LOL, no I didn't. I knew Evan would almost surely be in the top 2, given the way everyone else was skating and the politics.

What I said is that if everyone skated their best (assuming no Quad from Evan), I would rank him 12th in the World.

janetfan said:

Don't you have even the slightest clue about what it means to compete and which athletes are capable of rising to the top under pressure? Apparently not.

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The other athletes did rise to the top under pressure, though? Evan skated a technically easier LP than almost every other top competitor in the field; a program that displayed average skating skills and almost no artistry. His only real accomplishment was skating nearly clean. The judges gave him ridiculously high PCS marks simply for skating clean and because of the politics. Anyone who knows what they are talking about would have marked Lysacek's skating skills far lower than what he actually got. He doesn't have great edge quality, he doesn't build speed with ease, and he doesn't stroke and turn with fluidity.

The artistic side is more subjective but, really, anyone with taste and a clear sense of view (IE. - not being stuck on the mindset of "AMERICA!! Rah rah rah!!!") would also recognize his program as being very baseless. Dick Button once called one of Plushenko's programs "applied nonsense". That is precisely how Lysacek's program should be described. He doesn't interpret the music or provide a unique artistic point of view, he just goes through the motions of what has been told to him. And a completely objective point about his performance is that he ended WAY ahead of the music. Clearly you aren't listening to the music and interpreting it if you randomly throw your arms into your final pose before it's called for.

Takahashi got screwed over by getting 0 points for his Quad attempt, his 3Toe getting downgraded, and ridiculous -GOE on his excellent Triple Luzes. His edges, speed, and fluidity are an entirely higher plane than Lysacek's and his ability to interpret the music and actually generate genuine emotion and personality was greater as well.

Kozuka pretty much always gets screwed over by the judges no matter what. Except at 2008 Skate America when he deservedly defeated both Lysacek and Weir. That was such a great moment. Too bad the judges don't recognize his skating skills, which are clearly the best in the business, or the greater level of complexity and emotional depth in his programs. He landed a clean Quad too and didn't even get much credit for it. His fall later on was really no big deal seeing as how he had done so much more then Evan up to that point. He received crap GOE and PCS scores because of being the 3rd ranked Japanese guy.

Then there is Weir who skated clean just like Evan did and with a far more artistic program. Look at how Weir moves his arm and leg, creating a unique shape exactly in time with the sound of the bell music during his program. It doesn't matter if the choreography was simpler (it wasn't even that much so in comparison to Evan), he deserved a much higher score for Interpretation and, even though his speed could have been better, his edge quality was still stronger than Evan's too. He was ignored for being the 3rd ranked American, there's nothing more to it.

If Weir had gone into the Olympics as the reigning World and National Champ, everyone would have praised him for nailing the performance. And if Lysacek had gone in as the 3rd ranked American and with no major International titles, people would have said - "Good job for skating clean, but he doesn't have the same amount of artistry and refinement as the top skaters."

It's all politics and the judges are unable to separate the actual skating and performance quality. The GOE and PCS scores for the exact same performances will fluctuate vastly depending simply upon "clout", and that's simply wrong and will always be a problem no matter what the judging system is as long as we have poor judges.

I can't tell you where I saw this now, but I did see an interview with David Wilson about choreography and he made the point that often skaters wind up simplifying the program (for any number of reasons ) and although he put it tactfully ,the clear implication was that Johnny had sacrificed so much of the choreography in the interest of going clean, that he made his chances of making it to the podium much more difficult that they should have been.

Beautiful to watch though it was , I wonder what it was like in it's complete state ? :think:

Blades of Passion said:

It's all politics and the judges are unable to separate the actual skating and performance quality. The GOE and PCS scores for the exact same performances will fluctuate vastly depending simply upon "clout", and that's simply wrong and will always be a problem no matter what the judging system is as long as we have poor judges.

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I totally agree. And yes, Kozuka is consistently underscored for being the third ranked Japanese skater.

Which is odd given that he's consistently beaten Oda at bigger competitions. Also I agree with Tonichelle, though I don't know how much I like that I agree.

colleen o'neill said:

I can't tell you where I saw this now, but I did see an interview with David Wilson about choreography and he made the point that often skaters wind up simplifying the program (for any number of reasons ) and although he put it tactfully ,the clear implication was that Johnny had sacrificed so much of the choreography in the interest of going clean, that he made his chances of making it to the podium much more difficult that they should have been.

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It shows this happening on his TV show. Johnny goes to T.O to get his choreography done, then he comes home and shows his coach the program and she takes pretty much everything out! Good job there coach

Sure Johnny hits some nice lines but I watched him live in Vancouver and he was absolutely boring and incredibly slow. I started studying for an exam during his program. Evan is not my cup of tea but he definitely knows how to bring the audience into his programs.

Anyways, Johnny received a lot of praise during and after the Olympics for being so "gracious". I think that has been thrown out the window since then with all of his complaining, "woe is me" attitude, media "whoring", and public fights with Evan.

Grow up Johnny.

colleen o'neill said:

I can't tell you where I saw this now, but I did see an interview with David Wilson about choreography and he made the point that often skaters wind up simplifying the program (for any number of reasons ) and although he put it tactfully ,the clear implication was that Johnny had sacrificed so much of the choreography in the interest of going clean, that he made his chances of making it to the podium much more difficult that they should have been.

Beautiful to watch though it was , I wonder what it was like in it's complete state ? :think:

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I too wish Johnny had better programs. Still, the whole idea of his program being empty was such bull. Evan's program was totally a case of "the emperor has no clothes". His team talked about how his transitions and everything were so much better than Plushenko's but, ultimately, Evan's program was actually very simplistic choreographically. Sure, both his SP and LP were more complex than Plushenko's, but that doesn't really say much. And let it be noted that, despite quite bare choreography, Plushenko's performance quality and musical interpretation in his LP was STILL better than Lysacek's. Plushenko at least provides a unique point of view and is able to follow the music. He didn't just skate around and think only about the technical elements and go through the motions.

Where Plushenko went wrong was his awful SP and a large drop off in speed and edge quality compared to where he was at in 2006.

i love to skate said:

Anyways, Johnny received a lot of praise during and after the Olympics for being so "gracious". I think that has been thrown out the window since then with all of his complaining, "woe is me" attitude, media "whoring", and public fights with Evan.

Grow up Johnny.

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LMAO, Evan is the person who slandered Weir on his twitter page and then attempted to retract it and say someone "hacked his account", despite having written a bunch of tweets directly before and after the one where he attacked Weir that were clearly things he himself had written.

He is certainly not more mature or less of a complainer. Evan simply has less to complain about because USFSA has never screwed him over.

BTW, Evan can't media wh*re because he doesn't have anything of value worth saying. He is boring, both on and off the ice.

Blades of Passion said:

LMAO, Evan is the person who slandered Weir on his twitter page and then attempted to retract it and say someone "hacked his account", despite having written a bunch of tweets directly before and after the one where he attacked Weir that were clearly things he himself had written.

He is certainly not more mature or less of a complainer. Evan simply has less to complain about because USFSA has never screwed him over.

BTW, Evan can't media wh*re because he doesn't have anything of value worth saying. He is boring, both on and off the ice.

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And Johnny made a comment and insinuated that Evan was gay - and then HE tried to backtrack and said that wasn't what he meant....when clearly it was Then he also went on an called Evan a "slore". I mean really....is he 15 years old??

Evan has an Olympic gold medal and is a World Champion. That is why he doesn't have to be a media wh*re...

I don't want to give Lysacek too much credit for class - he did, after all, complain pretty loudly during Nationals about his PCS scores and his coach pretty much said they weren't inflated enough (not inaccurate mind you, but weren't inflated enough.) but really, Blades, I think his lack of class pales in comparison to Wier's - his comments with regards to Lysacek's sexuality, the Stars on Ice debacle (both sides were wrong), and now essentially dismissing his competitor's skates/results as the result of politicking. Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how defensible that is.

i love to skate said:

And Johnny made a comment and insinuated that Evan was gay

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Which isn't slanderous, nor untruthful (whereas Lysacek's comment was, and juvenille on top of it). But we aren't allowed to talk about such things here, so I won't go into the hilarious naivety of the situation.

i love to skate said:

Evan has an Olympic gold medal and is a World Champion. That is why he doesn't have to be a media wh*re...

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Johnny would "media wh*re" far more if he was the Olympic Gold Medalist. The simple fact is that people are actually interested in what he has to say and WANT to interview him, whereas nobody really cares about Lysacek aside from the usual "American boy wins, rah rah rah!!!"

ImaginaryPogue said:

[Weir essentially dismissing his competitor's skates/results as the result of politicking. Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how defensible that is.]

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It's easily defensible. What are you supposed to say when your federation specifically tells you, "yeah we held you down"? If you don't think politics play a huge role in judging, you should reassess the reality of the situation. It's GOOD that people talk about it rather than just ignoring the problem.

Figure Skating still has too much of a 1950's mentatlity, it seems. Everyone has to repress any kind of outrage or oddity and stick within a confined box like a pretty little housewife.

Blades of Passion said:

Which isn't slanderous, nor untruthful (whereas Lysacek's comment was, and juvenille on top of it). But we aren't allowed to talk about such things here, so I won't go into the hilarious naivety of the situation.

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How were Johnny's comments not untruthful and juvenile?? Do you have personal knowledge that Evan is gay? Insinuating that someone is gay and calling them a "slore" is definitely something you would expect to see in, say grade nine.

Considering everything that Johnny has been through in regards to his own sexuality, I fail to understand why on earth he would throw someone else under the bus for the exact some issue...

ETA:
IMO, Johnny Weir is simply not a good enough skater to have landed on the podium in 2010. He lacks speed, power, transitions, and choreography. Even so, he was rewarded for his long program at the Olympics as he got a PB of 156.77. He has usually scored in the 140-152 range on the international scene for the past two years. During his two GPs this year - both times in the FS he scored below 140. Even when he got 3rd at Worlds in 2008 (and was the second ranked American man coming out of Nationals) he only scored a 141.05 in the FS.

So I don't think this idea that Johnny was horribly under marked because he was the third ranked man and therefore was not pushed by his federation holds any weight at all. Evan Lysacek finished third at the 2005 and 2009 US Championships yet he managed to win a World bronze medal and a World Championship those same years. Why was he not held down if this "third skater syndrome" is indeed true?

Let's split the argument in three.

The endless "Johnny vs Evan" thing is done ee-nough so please throw it away.

"Johnny's behaviour is ungraceful" discussion is also done enough and for commoners very obvious so please throw this away too.

"What if there's some truth in what Johnny says this time" is the only concern here, IMO.

I think there are times in which you have to sacrifice some grace in order to say something true.
Being ungraceful doesn't (shouldn't) decrease the value of truth IF there is indeed such truth enveloped in that ungracefulness.

...
Third skater syndrome is commonly acknowledged but then why don't we say that it's wrong?
Why do we abondon at the moment we give it a fancy name like "syndrome"? Giving it a name isn't explaining it.
I think a bit of the same kind this time.

Ahem, Ahem..time out...Sorry, I can't let this pass. Please, if you're trying to be fair.. you simply cannot hold up Plushy's program as an example of good choreography and /or musical interpretation. Dai's was the best combo of program and interpretation of the night. I'm not sure how much he should have lost on the fall and the UR, when his execution of everything else was good to fabulous , and the audience was rocked by both his programs.. All this Johnny vs. Evan vs Plushy stuff seems beside the point, if you want to talk overall program content and musical interpretation.( of those who didn't implode on the night )
I should add ,I think 3rd skater syndrome is real, but to varying degrees at different times in different organizations...it isn't always in play and it's not a universal reason for every unsatisfactory result.

both Evan and Johnny are to blame for the current state of their catfight (which is all it is). Both are so into beating the other in the attention arena that it's just become ridiculous. They've been going at it like two girls in the locker room since 2005. It's time for them to both just shut up already. But neither one will, they both know which buttons to push. It keeps both in the spotlight.

janetfan said:

Johnny said he and Evan both belonged on the Olympic podium.
So that can only mean Johnny thinks he outskated either Plushy or Dai - not to mention Patrick and Stephane.
Actually, I thought Johnny did outskate Patrick and Stephane in Vancouver and should have been 4th.
But not on the podium.

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Yes, and the judges got it right, as technically Weir did outskate Lambiel, Chan and Takahashi:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG002.HTM

but definetely not in PCS and that is Weir´s own fault and for the combined results (his 6th place freeskate finish) he should not blame anyone else but his easy (except jumps of course) and empty freeskate programme.

Besides, one has to remember how much better Takahashi was than Weir in the freeskate (e.g. wonderful CoP-programme, speed and great musicality). And Takahashi was only 5th in the freeskate. No way should have Weir been ahead of Takahashi, LOL. As I mentioned in earlier posting, it was unlucky for Weir to have to skate directly after a performer like Takahashi...

I feel it is sad that Weir does not understand better the sport where he has been competing. If he would, he would not give such ridiculous statements about his placement. Or is it just an overly big ego which prevents him from seeing the reality, perhaps?

Olympia said:

There's an example of faulty logic that's often cited: Van Gogh, a great painter, sold just one painting during his lifetime. I have sold just one painting in my lifetime. That proves that I'm a great painter.

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I thought that proves you are a Van Cogh I ll buy your second painting!

76olympics said:

I wish they would just exhaust themselves expressing this to each other on an isolated island.

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Thats a brilliant idea, please send them over to Greece, I ll handle the debate.

Mathman said:

*Gasp* National federations play favorites? They make deals and do favors for each other? What is the sport coming to?

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you are a new fan, there are many things you dont know about the politics of Fs.

i love to skate said:

And Johnny made a comment and insinuated that Evan was gay - and then HE tried to backtrack and said that wasn't what he meant....when clearly it was Then he also went on an called Evan a "slore". I mean really....is he 15 years old??

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I just read about the twitter incident and what Lysacek said and then took it back claiming it was a hacker instead of him, was not better nor more clever. For both that.

Blades of Passion said:

The results of the 2010 Olympics for the Men should have been:

1. Daisuke Takahashi
2. Takahiko Kozuka
3. Johnny Weir

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Not to debate this, but if you look at Takahashi's programs completely without emotions about the skater, the programs dont have super transitions or complex choreo, what they had though was choreo relevant to music in Sp and LP, playing a character, his charisma, his skills etc, the things that give personality to choreographer's work. At least that was my impression from Worlds where he skater much better than Olympics. tHAT would be an awesome podium by the way

Blades of Passion said:

Which isn't slanderous, nor untruthful (whereas Lysacek's comment was, and juvenille on top of it). But we aren't allowed to talk about such things here, so I won't go into the hilarious naivety of the situation.

Johnny would "media wh*re" far more if he was the Olympic Gold Medalist. The simple fact is that people are actually interested in what he has to say and WANT to interview him, whereas nobody really cares about Lysacek aside from the usual "American boy wins, rah rah rah!!!"

It's easily defensible. What are you supposed to say when your federation specifically tells you, "yeah we held you down"? If you don't think politics play a huge role in judging, you should reassess the reality of the situation. It's GOOD that people talk about it rather than just ignoring the problem.

Figure Skating still has too much of a 1950's mentatlity, it seems. Everyone has to repress any kind of outrage or oddity and stick within a confined box like a pretty little housewife.

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Please post a link or reference with Lysacek confirming his sexuality. And please explain how Weir's comment wasn't juvenile. And yeah, Weir's hypocrisy/coy game on the issue doesn't sit well with me in this context.

The very fact that you're saying "Lysacek's boring therefore he can't media-hound" might be the emptiest argument you've ever made. It's beneath you, frankly, and I'm a little surprised you're engaging on that level.

Point 1 - I don't believe anyone from the Federation came right out and said anything of the sort to Mr. Weir. Frankly, given the chance that it would get aired and make them look stupid, you'd think they'd know better. I can see them saying "You skated really well" and him transforming that into a "we didn't politick you hard enough". Point 2: His basic argument was that he lost to politicking. Fair enough - I don't think he did, but I also think Evan's PCS were too high (I should add that my nightmare podium was Plushenko-Joubert-Lysacek, so while I think the end result was fair for the podium - it represents a night of figure skating that I was not happy with.) That BY DEFINITION takes away from the performances. Doris said something that the performances still stand, and I was pointing out that I felt Wier was trying to infer the opposite. And since he was doing so without back-up (Blades, whatever I feel about your opinion, you do your best to back it up with comments about the skating, not empty inferences), I think it was worth mentioning.

ImaginaryPogue said:

Point 1 - I don't believe anyone from the Federation came right out and said anything of the sort to Mr. Weir. Frankly, given the chance that it would get aired and make them look stupid, you'd think they'd know better. I can see them saying "You skated really well" and him transforming that into a "we didn't politick you hard enough". Point 2: His basic argument was that he lost to politicking. .

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I think it takes a mighty leap of faith to believe Johnny's statement about this. And many other things he says too since he typically has to follow up so many of his remarks with retractions.

If US Skating has these "mystical powers" Weir refers to then they did not seem to be on display when D/W finished second or a more glaring example would be B/A missing the podium. And what about Mirai? I guess she was thrown under the bus in order for Rachael to place higher.

Maybe Mirai was placed 4th because to the best of the judges abilities that was how they felt about her skating. Maybe D/W were beaten by some incredibly good skating from V/M. The case of B/A finsihing 4th did not seem right to me - be we all know US Skating has never supported them ....cough, cough.....

Or maybe Johnny, as "I love to Skate" pointed out simply does not show the speed and power or CoP choreo needed to beat some of the top skaters. Come to think of it - when in the past has Weir ever won a notable title?

His US titles were mostly before the CoP era and even in 2006, the last time Johnny won the CoP was much different.

I think the argument that Weir deserved to be on the podium in Vancouver is weak and without merit. It is not only weak but silly to think US Skating tried to hold him back. That argument could hold weight at US Natls - where all of the judges are from the US Skating federation.

Opinions from his fans about his skating are fine - but is there a shred of proof that US Skating politicked to keep Weir off the podium in Vancouver?