Johnny Weir article...o dear o dear
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The numbers are meaningless. Johnny didn't skate nearly as well at any of those other competitions as he did at Nationals. And, again, if one more person says Johnny's program "had no transitions" I am going to scream. That's completely a lie.
The problem is not so much that his marks were too low as it is that other competitors' marks were too high. Stephane Lambiel received the highest PCS of the night for an incredibly tepid performance and a program that is far from his best. Lysecek received some of the highest scores for Skating Skills and Interpretation, despite being completely average in those areas. Kozuka received the LOWEST score for skating skills out of the top competitors, despite being among the best in that regard. It's all wrong.
FYI, I would have scored Lysacek, Plushenko, and Lambiel 10-15 points lower in their Long Programs. If their GOE and PCS marks had properly reflected what actually happened on the ice, rather than how the judges were TOLD to view each skater, that would be an accurate assessment of their performances.
In 2005 the other Americans skated poorly in the SP, which allowed Evan to emerge as the top American going into the LP. In 2009, Evan was NOT the third-ranked American. He was still pushed as the top American by USFSA, despite his Bronze at Nationals. He defeated both Abbott and "that-forgettable-skater-who-stole-Weir's-spot-at-Worlds" at Four Continents after Nationals, which secured his place. Abbott and le forgettable skater also did not skate very well in the SP at 2009 Worlds.
Again, a ridiculous statement. How does interpreting the music and giving an emotional performance = "an empty freeskate"? The emphasis on transitions currently is ridiculous. Who cares about transitions if they don't support the music and the program as a whole. Patrick Chan absolutely did not deserve a higher "artistic mark" than Weir simply because he had some difficult transitions before his jumps. His program was poorly constructed with an AWFUL cut of music and Patrick doesn't have emotional maturity in his performances. He has excellent skating skills, but everything else? Not yet in league with the best in the business. And, seriously, it's not even worth talking about Lambiel's performance. First of all, HE didn't have many transitions either. And aside from that, he skated slow and tentatively and had scratchy landings on almost every single jumping pass in the program, which further detracted from his flow.
I feel sad that the sport is in such an awful situation right now that we are seeing laborious, predictable, and meaningless programs/performances be rewarded as artistic when they actually aren't.
It was actually Takahashi who got the highest PCS:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG002.HTM
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Oh, you did not just pull that crap. Johnny should have won 2008 Nationals by a very safe margin over Lysacek.
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
You don't seem to understand the power individual federations have over their own skaters. You should also read up on political lobbying (like, in the WORLD in general). If a federation tells the judges to consider one of their skaters above another one of their skaters, the judges WILL score the event accordingly. Only big mistakes by "the chosen skater" will allow the other skater to pull ahead.
What the judges should be doing is looking at every skater equally, regardless of their "ranking" and fairly analyzing the programs and elements and performances from there.
In my personal opinion, if Lysacek and Weir both skate their programs nearly perfectly (as they did at the Olympics), Weir should be placed higher. Weir is not nearly as good as he used to be, but he still has more artistry than Lysacek and comparable tech content. It's too bad Abbott couldn't get it together at Olympics. He would have deserved to be FAR ahead of both of them. For the past several years it's Abbott who has been by far the most creative and artistic American out there (the most creative in the entire World, for that matter...although I did find Abbott's LP last season to be very underwhelming in comparison to his masterpieces from 2008 and 2009).
Okay, so Lambiel got the second highest. Still horribly judged.
I think the problem lies in how PCS is being scored. In my opinion, this is the CoP version of the second mark under 6.0; merely a placeholder. I went back to review the protocols of the men's competition and Weir's scores on all PCS segments were comparatively lower than the men above him. He had 7's for all the segments while the other 5 above him had mostly 8's. I think he at least deseved 8's for performance/execution and interpretation. In my opinion, his interpretation was only second to Takahashi's on that night. Usually I would rank Lambiel above him for interpretation but I do agree that Lambiel was quite uninspired on that night.
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Where exactly are all these transitions you are talking about? Please show me. He does back double threes into a triple loop, a spread eagle after the loop, and an ina bauer into a triple salchow. He does cross cuts in between his elements for the most part, except occasionally when he will do a three turn or a mohawk. The majority of his jumps are telegraphed and then he will do some posing on the ice - such as where he will put his hands to his face and throw back his head. Really, it is absolutely a choreographically empty program. I can't see how you would say otherwise.
Kozuka has good skating skills but they are not among the best in the World.
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You just named 3 transitions, darling.
As for the choreography, if arm movements and "posing" interpret the music and create emotions then what is wrong with that. I fail to see how a boring transition that doesn't intepret the music is better. If you look at Michelle Kwan's "Tosca" there wasn't complex choreography going on either. Just a lot of "simple" movements that brilliantly reflected the music and had a ton of heart and emotion. Ditto for her "Lyra Angelica". Those two programs are remembered as classics these days.
Yes they are and you're not looking properly if you say otherwise. Look at the ease with which he builds speed, changes feet/direction, comes to stops, and the depth of his edges. He is so much better than Lysacek and his program was far more difficult and emotionally satisfying as well.
I think the problem is that Weir´s choreography (= programme) is also too simple compared to skaters above him. One does not deserve high performance/execution scores for something that is simple and slow. In my opinion he got the scores he deserved. Interpretation, well, compared to others he was not outstanding at all, in my opinion. He had some choreographed beautiful looking poises though, but that´s not interpretation, IMO.
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Get a grip Blades!
'08 Natls may have been disputable - but I never before heard anyone claim that Johnny should have won "by a very safe margin." Such an "opinion" seems out of touch with the way skating is judged.
It was close - and believe it or not had I been judging I might have placed Johnny first - but not by a comfortable margin.
As to the influence of federations - hmmmm, can we assume that in '98 the US federation was lobbying behind the scenes for Tara? :sheesh:
Or is it known that the USA judge placed Michelle first? Since Michelle was our Natl champion and skated pretty well in Nagano how do you explain Tara's win?
I guess that is just another example of me not understanding how National federations controll the outcome of international events.
Puh-leez.......:think:
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Wow, three whole transitions in a program! That definitely belongs on the podium...
That comes down to 6.0 vs COP. Choreography standards have changed over the years. I don't think Tosca is a classic - her performance at Nationals is what is remembered, not the choreography of the program. Lyra Angelica is much more than arm movements and posing - that program was a masterpiece. The way she switches her front foot on her ina bauer sequence is one of my most favourite moments in skating.
Kozuka is one of my favourites - but no his SS are not World class yet. Especially when you compare then to Chan, Dai, Lambiel, etc. Oda has good basics as well and I marvel at the speed he creates.
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:disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp:
You are so wrong. The performance program component is about just that - THE PERFORMANCE. The complexity of the program has nothing to do with it. That's what the transitions and choreography marks are for.
And thus we see an example of why judging is so bad these days. People are clueless about judging the individual components.
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Lysaeck had 4. Big difference? Plushenko had 0.
And, again, the argument of "transitions" is a tired and meaningless one. The transitions mark is one program component out of 5. If you have less transitions, but are better in every other regard, then guess what - that's a 4 to 1 difference in your favor and you deserve to be scored higher.
Kwan had 0 "transitions" directly before or after jumps in her Lyra Angelica program. According to you, she wouldn't even deserve to be on the podium with that kind of performance these days.
And what you said about Tosca is exactly the point - yeah, the choreography was more simplistic, but she deserved a 10/10 on the PERFORMANCE component for what she did and certainly a very high score for Skating Skills and Interpretation as well. Judges aren't differentiating between those things and the programs these days are becoming disgusting because everyone is trying to cram movements into their programs that are completely unncesscary.
You're being willfully ignorant. His spread eagles are 100x better than Lysacek's. His turns and ability to change edges are 100x better. His ability to gain speed without pumping into the ice is 100x better. His blade control all around is so much more superior. If you critically examine the performances objectively you would see these things and also recognize that Lysacek has the WEAKEST skating skills out of any of the top competitors (aside from Oda maybe). His edges and flow over the ice are distinctly inferior. Just because he does transitions and has ice presence and the name of "Frank Carroll" behind him, that doesn't mean he is an excellent basic skater.
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well plushenko had less than 3 and was on the podium
I dont kniw either how to seperate pcs concerning performance and interpretation but at the end of the day and after the competition, it matters which program is more enjoyble to rewatch, I ve watched Weir's and Dai's far more than the rest.
you know I like you but i disagree
Kozuka has spectacular skills, in Rostel he was the best and in Worlds among the best, he glides on ice and has really deep edges, you must see his body lines even when he does crossovers, he makes it look too easy, he is not Chan but he is almost there He doesnt sell his skills like Lambiel and Dai but there are there, he has them.- Joined
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Did I ever say that Evan has World class skating skills??? I believe I listed Chan, Dai, and Lambiel as my examples. I made no mention of Evan (by the way, I don't think he has world class SS). I find that you continue to drag Evan down no matter what. Just like he was the one who made untruthful and juvenile remarks - yet Johnny's remarks were truthful and not juvenile, right? :disapp: Perhaps you are the ignorant one...
Seniorita...you know I like you too
I think Kozuka has very good SS but to me they are just not quite up there with the other top skaters yet - but he is very close and I do think he will get there this year! You know how much I love Kozuka but my biggest issue with him is the way he always looks down at the ice. You are right he doesn't sell his programs as much nor does he have much of a "presence" on the ice. I am hoping this will improve this year. I absolutely loved his long program last year and I can't wait to see what he comes up with this year.
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Get a grip Blades!
'08 Natls may have been disputable - but I never before heard anyone claim that Johnny should have won "by a very safe margin." Such an "opinion" seems out of touch with the way skating is judged.
Uhh, a LOT of people have said that. Obviously not any of the North American commentators because they don't want to create controversy and are often more on Evan's side (Scott Hamilton
) anyway.Michelle and Tara were the top 2 skaters in the World. The U.S. didn't NEED to specifically push one of them over the other because the U.S. winning the Gold Medal at the Olympics was a guaranteed thing. You're also forgetting that, despite Michelle winning Nationals and being considered the overall better skater, Tara was the reigning World Champion and 2-time GPF Champion. She had considerable clout on her side.
When it came down to it Michelle didn't skate perfectly, whereas Tara skated a technically more difficult program perfectly and gave the performance of her lifetime later in the competition. There was a lot of buzz about Tara becoming the youngest Olympic Gold Medalist ever and that also was on the judges' minds. Such a title and performance would be very exciting and Tara delivered the goods 100% to the judges.
At 2010 Olympics, Plushenko was a big threat to the U.S. winning the Olympic Gold. As such, USFSA pushed all of their support towards Evan because he was considered the most likely candidate to be able to deliver and had the most "momentum" as the reigning World Champ and GPF champ.
Johnny's remark WAS truthful and I'm not going to debate that point any more since GS does not allow people to talk about such things. Also note that Johnny has never lied about statements regarding his sexual orientation, only that he doesn't want to talk about it and wants his skating and other creative achievements to form the discussion. It's incredibly clear who the more honest person is and who has instead decided to form a fake persona in order to benefit his career with image of being "a good old American boy".
But hey, NEWS FLASH, Tom Cruise is straight and his relationships with Nicole Kidman, Penelope Cruz, and Katie Holmes have all been real and not setup by his management.
Oh, wait....
There's really nothing more to say because it's pointless to argue with people who aren't in the business and will buy into whatever the media tells them.
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Also, regarding Kozuka, his skating skills are indeed World class. His edge quality, blade control, and ability to effortlessly generate speed are absolutely on the level of Takahashi, Lambiel, and Chan. Just look at the way he is able to come to sudden stops, the depth of his spread eagles, his brackets, and the amount of speed he gains with just a couple crossovers. His choreography is not as FLASHY as other skaters, which is why it may not be apparent to someone who isn't looking close enough. Kozuka instead favors subtlety, which sadly is something the sport is losing. Judges don't recognize that kind of skating anymore unless you are a skater who already has "momentum" or are "due".
Kozuka also has the heart of an artist. He attempts to choreograph to the music, rather than just to what gains the most points, and puts truthful emotions into his performances. The only thing he needs to work on, aside from further technical consistency, are his facial expressions and confidence. He is equal to or even better than Takahashi (his spins) in every other regard already.
EDIT - For that matter another blatant example of judges holding one skater up above another are the GOE grades on the spins. Kozuka's are just as good or better than Lysacek's, but I think Lysacek received higher GOE grades overall on his spins.
Kozuka also has the heart of an artist. He attempts to choreograph to the music, rather than just to what gains the most points, and puts truthful emotions into his performances. The only thing he needs to work on, aside from further technical consistency, are his facial expressions and confidence. He is equal to or even better than Takahashi (his spins) in every other regard already.
EDIT - For that matter another blatant example of judges holding one skater up above another are the GOE grades on the spins. Kozuka's are just as good or better than Lysacek's, but I think Lysacek received higher GOE grades overall on his spins.
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Blades..If this isn't straying too far OT..I think you're right about Kozuka insofar as the only thing he really needs is to be able to project / connect with the audience more. I'm not arguing the fine points of his skills Vs. Dai's ,since my technical knowledge isn't as great as some others'.. and I greatly admire them both. When he makes that progression, as I believe he will, I think the subtlety will be recognised . E.g... I think the judges were ready to reward Abbott ( subtleties and all ), if he hadn't imploded, because he is that much more able to emote. Chan is a bit different to my mind..you know he has to feel the music, or his timing wouldn't be so good. I don't know if I can articulate this properly, but to me it feels like his reserve is with himself. It's like he can't ( or won't) fully allow himself to respond to the music in an emotional way. As if he's holding it in check.
But with the skills, emotion, projection that Johnny has, I can't fathom why they pared his program down as much as they did. I feel sure he could have handled more. Watching him at the time,though it was beautiful , I had the feeling that it wasn't going to be enough .
and I greatly admire them both. When he makes that progression, as I believe he will, I think the subtlety will be recognised . E.g... I think the judges were ready to reward Abbott ( subtleties and all ), if he hadn't imploded, because he is that much more able to emote. Chan is a bit different to my mind..you know he has to feel the music, or his timing wouldn't be so good. I don't know if I can articulate this properly, but to me it feels like his reserve is with himself. It's like he can't ( or won't) fully allow himself to respond to the music in an emotional way. As if he's holding it in check.But with the skills, emotion, projection that Johnny has, I can't fathom why they pared his program down as much as they did. I feel sure he could have handled more. Watching him at the time,though it was beautiful , I had the feeling that it wasn't going to be enough .
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Kozuka also got a new haircut if you have seen vids of The Ice show in Japan
thats indeed news flash for menot that I care much, but I didnt know honestly:think:
he is not???But hey, NEWS FLASH, Tom Cruise is straight and his relationships with Nicole Kidman, Penelope Cruz, and Katie Holmes have all been real and not setup by his management.
Oh, wait....
thats indeed news flash for menot that I care much, but I didnt know honestly:think:
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Yes better we better not talk about it because there is no "link" to prove it. Things in the World are only real if there is an internet link talking about it. :sheesh:
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whenever you cannot find "a link" , you can always "link" to your own post as a reliable source, I ll start doing it
