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Johnny Weir article...o dear o dear
- Thread starter Taan
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Wonderfully put, JanetFan. Evan isn't a skater for the ages. But he is a very good skater, and he has the gift of milking not just the CoP but every iota of his own potential. That's not great artistry, but it is the sign of a great performer. I love your point that this is what most judges consider as a strength of his. I admire him for his drive and his meticulous attention to detail. He must also have a certain amount of--I don't know what to call it. Courtesy? Humility?--because he plainly put himself in Frank Carroll's hands and learned everything he could from Carroll and Lori Nichol. He even let Vera Wang put sequins on him! He took seriously the efforts of everyone on his team, and he left nothing to chance. I do not begrudge him the gold medal. The one thing he lacked, that expressive X-factor, may not be something that can be taught. Lambiel has it, and Yagudin, and Takahashi, and Chan. That's not something that always gets the gold, partly because of the luck of the evening. Look at Kwan the night Lipinski had the skate of her life. That's life. Art is something else again! When the two coincide, as in Curry's victory in 1976, it's magic. When they don't, we still get to keep the magical performances, thanks to our memories and YouTube.
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- Aug 18, 2010
Exactly! I'm sure there was a reason why Galina has watered down his choreograph.
Marina Anissina made him a beautifully choreographed LP in 2007. He couldn't do it and messed up a lot of his jumps. There were a lot of blames on Anissina at that time.
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Generally the energy Evan puts into his performances is his biggest strength. But at the Olympics he really didn't even do that great. He was pretty tentative and showed almost no facial expression or extra bodily excitement at all. At least at 2009 Worlds he went crazy during his final combination spin and sincerely flung his arms into the final pose.
Lots of other competitors skated well under pressure too, though? It's not like Evan has a stranglehold on being able to deliver. Takahashi and Weir both did 8 Triples, just as Evan did. Plushenko and Kozuka did a Quad + 7 Triples.
What you just said is the exact fallacy going through the minds of judges'. They think - "we know this competitor has delivered in the past, so we'll give them extra consideration and support." Bullocks.
Uhh, Galina felt that Johnny's choreography in the SP was "too extreme" and in the LP she probably just didn't care enough. It's not like her former champions were known for having intricate choreography. She clearly doesn't put incredible emphasis on it.
Johnny messing up his program in 2007 speaks to his state of mind that year, not his skating ability. It's too bad he didn't stick with Anissina. Her work was brilliant.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think you are asking the impossible of human judges. There will always be an elite group of competitors that "everyone knows" will produce the podium. Judges, like fans, come into the arena expecting a level of excellence from the top guns and in a mind-frame to reward those who deliver on these expectations.
If Adrian Schultheiss had given the exact same performance that Lysacek did, do you think he would now be the Olympic champion?
You could argue that with Evan, that's not even what happened at the Olympics. After Plushenko skated and hit his quad I remember thinking, well, "that skate was pretty sloppy and Evan was better but Plushenko will win anyway because he did the quad and he stayed on his feet and he is Plushenko." And I was wrong.
Who really had the most benefit of the doubt from the judges that night? Evan or Plushenko? You could probably argue either way or maybe neither of them did.
BoP is right that Evan did not have his very best FS that night. But neither did Plushenko or Dai, and Evan was cleaner than either of them. He was cleaner than Johnny, too. It frustrates me that Johnny got penalized for mistakes I can't see but unfortunately, those were the rules. If anyone got too much benefit of the doubt that that night it was Chan and Lambiel, who had sloppy skates and somehow ended up higher than Johnny because the judges just automatically give them highs PC. Well, as Mathman points out, building up your reputation IS part of the game in figure skating...
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Yes, but that's because there are only a certain number of skaters who have the talent in any given year. Someone like Adrian Schultheiss isn't going to magically have great spins at the Olympics when he hasn't all year long. Even if he has the skate of his life and does the jumps cleanly, other elements of his program simply aren't going to be at the same level as the "top competitors." He would certainly deserve credit for the performance he did give, though, and judges often don't reward that.
Even more frequently there are skaters who DO have the talent and give great performances, but aren't rewarded for it. Takahiko Kozuka - never on the World podium before and didn't have a great season leading up the Olympics, but he gave the skate of his life in the LP and displayed better skating skills and musical interpretation and spins than the guys who ended up taking the two top spots on the podium.
The same should be said about Matt Savoie's transitions in the LP at 2006 Olympics. He clearly should have received the highest score of the competition on that mark but his talent was ignored.
Everyone should be rewarded solely on what they do and judges need to objectively assess everyone's talent and performance. Obviously people want to see their favorites deliver, but that doesn't mean they deserve extra credit for their performances solely because they are considered a favorite.
There should be no such thing as "waiting your turn" or "being due". If you skate with great technique and artistry you deserve to be rewarded for it, period. I'm completely fine with seeing entirely different people on the podium every single year if that's how the performances shake out.
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Evan wasn't cleaner than Johnny. Johnny made a small error on one of his spins and Evan made a small error on his second Triple Axel. They were equal in terms of "cleanness." The entire idea of who is most clean deserving to win is wrong anyway. Evan was only "cleaner" than Takahashi because he didn't attempt the Quad and had an easier program even aside from not attempting the Quad. He would have been flat on his butt if he had gone for the Quad. Takahashi falling doesn't take away from the fact that his skating and performance was superior and that he landed 8 Triples (all with more height than Evan's).
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- May 15, 2009
What an good observation - and I felt pretty much the same way.
And is the anti-Evan crowd trying to tell us that straight-jacket boy skated as well as Evan in Vancouver?
What if Irina had skated as well as Tara in Nagano - would Irina have won the OGM?
The answer would be yes.
The fact that Evan did win says a little for the CoP. I remember Brian Orser saying that after Plushy finished he had absoutely no doubt in his mind that Evan deserved to win and he wondered if the judges would get it right.
Of course Brian Orser might not know as much about skating as some of our fine GS posters
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The answer would be no. Her program wasn't as good as Tara's, nor was her body line and expression. It was a better program than what she did in 2002, though (ick).
The fact that Evan did win says a little for the CoP. I remember Brian Orser saying that after Plushy finished he had absoutely no doubt in his mind that Evan deserved to win and he wondered if the judges would get it right.
Of course Brian Orser might not know as much about skating as some of our fine GS posters
There's no point in bringing up "he said, she said." All of the skating experts in Europe thought Plushenko should have won. Sasha Cohen thought Plushenko should have won. Weir thought Plushenko should have won. There are always going to be people on both sides of the fence at any competition where there isn't a blowout winner.
Giving reasoned and detailed explanation for an opinion goes much further than simply stating an opinion.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Of course Brian Orser might not know as much about skating as some of our fine GS posters
Just curious. In general, do you think that great skaters are better judges than the actual ISU judges are?
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- May 15, 2009
I think Orser is supposed to be very well versed on the CoP - so yes, I am sure he knows alot - certainly enough to judge.
Also, as a former top skater Orser knows more about some of the elements and most likely can spot good ones from weaker ones better than a judge who never mastered some of the elements at the very highest level.
Also, as a former top skater Orser knows more about some of the elements and most likely can spot good ones from weaker ones better than a judge who never mastered some of the elements at the very highest level.
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- May 15, 2009
Since we hear opinion after opinion of yours - why not spice it up with thoughts of others?
I mentioned Orser because many might think he is better versed in CoP than a Yagudin or other Russians who seem to still see 6.0 more than CoP.
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I thought Johnny also had a problem with his edge on the triple flip that cost him quite a bit... not something that took away from his performance in my eyes but I just thought that was part of the reason his scores weren't as high as many in the audience felt they should be.
I felt frustrated for Takahashi and enjoy is his skating much more than Evan's. But I just don't buy the argument that he should be rewarded just for trying the quad.
Evan left out the quad because he didn't feel it was consistent enough to put in competition. Takahashi's wasn't consistent enough either and he chose to try it anyway. Good for him and all that but the bottom line is neither skater has a consistent quad.
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Evan also got an edge call on his Triple Flip and additionally had a tight landing on that jump, so...
He shouldn't be rewarded for trying the Quad, but he shouldn't be penalized for it either. Falling on a Quad, but rotating it (and Takahashi did rotate it enough to not deserve the downgrade - look at where his toepick starts on the ice for that jump; he doesn't pre-rotate into the jump nearly as much as most people do), isn't any worse than successfully doing a simple, lazy Double Axel.
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- Feb 17, 2007
I think the truth lies between the extremes, as it usually does. Yes, reputation does play a part. A well established skater with several victories under his belt will win over a newcomer, or a skater with fewer titles, with an equal performance. But reputation is not all-powerful and overriding. When a skater without a history of winning rises above the competition, he will be rewarded.
When Alexei Urmanov won the Olympics in 1994, he had never won an ISU event. When Sarah Hughes won in 2002, she had won just one ISU event. So it is rare, but it can happen.
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- Jun 3, 2008
"Many think" is not an argument... after highschool.
it is kind of funny to imply that only Yagudin or Russians thought Plushenko should have won or just them not know CoP, cause Blades comment was
, and that includes not only Russia. Not that it matters now who said what about who should have won, it is ancient history now, just saying...
Maybe he should, cause he had a great performance that night Mathman!
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- Aug 18, 2010
I used to thought about it that way. But he said himself about his 2007 year's skating that he didn't feel the connection, along with his subsequent years performances, it has indicated that he doesn't have the abilities to jump out of his comfort zone and start of a new direction skating. His programs after 2007 are actually shrinking into his most comfortable core with fewer new movements and even similar musics and similar costumes. Seeing one, seems to me, is like seeing them all.
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- May 15, 2009
How is your summer seniorita?
My answer seems fine to me whether one is in high school or univeristy or taking part in adult life.
I think Brian Orser's record of achievement speaks for itself as does his well deserved reputation for integrity.
It is fine if Yags thinks Plushy won or if Tat thinks Plushy won, or even Putin. Is there a russian on record who thinks Evan won? I doubt it
Views from North America were not as robotic as views from across the pond. Some N. Americans thought Evan won, some thought Plushy should have won and some thought Dai should have won.
Since Orser was a top skater and is currently a highly regarded coach (and not from USA) I think his view is of interest. I am sure "many think" the same way about Orser - even those who have finished high school.
Hope your classes are going well
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- Aug 18, 2010
No, no, please don't start North America vs. Europe war again! It'll make the discussion go sour.
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