Johnny Weir article...o dear o dear

janetfan · Aug 23, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
As for the 2002 field > 2010 field, I'll agree that the performances were largely better. Not the programs, nor would I rewatch a majority of them, whereas I can think of a dozen men's programs from 2010 that I'd rewatch in a heartbeat.

I haven't watched this for a long time but think I like it better than almost all of the programs from 2010. Or maybe he is a better skater than the the current crop. Or maybe both :think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu3s9aR079k

Kitt · Aug 23, 2010

That is a magnificent program; what fun to watch it again. Alexei = perfect combo of athleticism and artistry.

ImaginaryPogue · Aug 23, 2010

Winter/Man in the Iron Mask would be the only men's programs from 2002 I'd revisit. However, from 09/10? You have La Strada, Tango, Munich, Jimi Hendrix, A Day in the Life, Chaplin, Camille Saint-Saens, and Jonathan Livingston Seagull. And it may not be a great program, and he was never able to skate it perfectly, but Chan's Phantom of the Opera contains some stunning moments.

Olympia · Aug 23, 2010

janetfan said:
I haven't watched this for a long time but think I like it better than almost all of the programs from 2010. Or maybe he is a better skater than the the current crop. Or maybe both :think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu3s9aR079k

Or maybe he is a better skater than the current crop? I'd say so...except for Daisuke, who has that magic also. (He just had the bad luck to be recovering from an injury this year.) I agree with you about Yagudin. He had both sides of the equation: technique and artistry. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain that someone else should have won the OGM instead of him. (Well. Maybe Plushenko complained. But that would be understandable.) He was an extraordinaly musical and charismatic performer, not to mention the quads and all. Thanks for reminding us!

Bluebonnet · Aug 23, 2010

Yagudin's SP and LP from 2002 are my all time favorites. But I love Plushenko's 2002 Olympics Carmen very much too. Way better than Lysacek's Carmen.

Blades of Passion · Aug 24, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
Winter/Man in the Iron Mask would be the only men's programs from 2002 I'd revisit. However, from 09/10? You have La Strada, Tango, Munich, Jimi Hendrix, A Day in the Life, Chaplin, Camille Saint-Saens, and Jonathan Livingston Seagull. And it may not be a great program, and he was never able to skate it perfectly, but Chan's Phantom of the Opera contains some stunning moments.

That's a really narrow view of 2002?

I know you don't care for Goebel's LP, but there was also Todd Eldredge (x2), Alexander Abt, and Matt Savoie (x2) with great programs. For 2010 I personally wouldn't list Munich (I can't even remember who skated to this), Chaplin (the program had potential but sadly never came to fruitation...if you want a glorious Chaplin program check out Elena+Anton from 2001!), Camille Saint-Saens or Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

I would list Takahashi's programs, Kozuka's programs, and Abbott's SP as great from 2010. I can't classify any of them as masterpieces, though. So for me 2002 had twice as much quality. 2004 was even better.

For CoP, 2007 was the strongest year. Lambiel, Buttle, Weir, and Takahashi all had excellent Long Programs and I'd even call the first three masterpieces (Buttle and Weir never skated them to full effect, though). Yu-Na and Mao both had their best programs that year as well. Sadly it's been completely downhill since then. I'm very hopeful about 2011, though. The ladies' programs are automatically going to way better without the time-wasting spirals.

Jaana · Aug 24, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
I would have given Lysacek a +1 on his 3Lutz-3Toe and solo 3Lutz, -1 on his second Triple Axel, and +0 on every other jumping pass. That's a total of +.8 points in the overall score from GOE on jumps. The judges gave him a total of +5.24.

Well, since it is probably safe to assume that you were not one of the judges in this competition, the scores you (or possibly other skating fans) are giving to skaters now afterwards, do not have much importance, do they? They are just opinions and nothing more. Importance have only the scores of the combined judging panel as they determine the podium and its order. Skating fans may not agree with the scores that have been given, but I think that the judges mostly have produced the right result though. So, the scores may sometimes look high, but the result is right, LOL.

Mathman · Aug 24, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
Kudos to judge #1 for scoring Weir ahead of Lysacek and kudos to judge #2 for actually giving Kozuka the credit he deserved and placing him as the 2nd best of the whole event.

If I remember correctly, the ISU changed its method of listing judges' scores for the 2009-2010 season, including the Olympics. I believe that in the protocols, the judges are given in random order for each skater separately. So judge #1 for Lysacek was not necessarily judge #1 for Weir, etc.

ImaginaryPogue · Aug 24, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
That's a really narrow view of 2002?

I know you don't care for Goebel's LP, but there was also Todd Eldredge (x2), Alexander Abt, and Matt Savoie (x2) with great programs. For 2010 I personally wouldn't list Munich (I can't even remember who skated to this), Chaplin (the program had potential but sadly never came to fruitation...if you want a glorious Chaplin program check out Elena+Anton from 2001!), Camille Saint-Saens or Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

Munich was Amodio's SP. I'm still working up my response to your list.

Blades of Passion · Aug 24, 2010

Jaana said:
Well, since it is probably safe to assume that you were not one of the judges in this competition, the scores you (or possibly other skating fans) are giving to skaters now afterwards, do not have much importance, do they? They are just opinions and nothing more. Importance have only the scores of the combined judging panel as they determine the podium and its order. Skating fans may not agree with the scores that have been given, but I think that the judges mostly have produced the right result though. So, the scores may sometimes look high, but the result is right, LOL.

This is complete and utter nonsense. Do you also believe women don't have the right to vote just because at the beginning of last century that's what government officials were telling people to believe?

First of all, many judges aren't even the most knowledgable people out there when it comes to skating. Second of all, I scarcely believe that most judges even fully understand how their scores work within the construct of CoP. And last of all, judges are negatively influenced by a whole list of factors that they frequently succumb to, which further damages the credibility of their scores. I rather trust my own expertise than the opinion of a highly questionable group.

Mathman said:
If I remember correctly, the ISU changed its method of listing judges' scores for the 2009-2010 season, including the Olympics. I believe that in the protocols, the judges are given in random order for each skater separately. So judge #1 for Lysacek was not necessarily judge #1 for Weir, etc.

Oh? That's too bad. Although process of elimination tells us who the "counted judges" were, no?

ImaginaryPogue said:
Munich was Amodio's SP.

Wow, yeah, I don't see anything special about that program at all. 3 jumping passes crammed back-to-back-to-back, footwork that is overly frantic in relation to the music, and spins that don't do anything to interpret the music. Amodio clearly has a lot of talent but that program is just another mechanical, disconnected CoP routine. In 2002 Stephane Lambiel, Jeffrey Buttle, and Johnny Weir had more artistry in their programs than the young field of today has been displaying.

Mathman · Aug 24, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
Oh? That's too bad. Although process of elimination tells us who the "counted judges" were, no?

Usually. You have to do it got each skater separately. Once in a while there is more than one possibility.

Jaana · Aug 25, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
First of all, many judges aren't even the most knowledgable people out there when it comes to skating. Second of all, I scarcely believe that most judges even fully understand how their scores work within the construct of CoP. And last of all, judges are negatively influenced by a whole list of factors that they frequently succumb to, which further damages the credibility of their scores. I rather trust my own expertise than the opinion of a highly questionable group.

Oh yeah, you seem to do that... Anyway, it is the skating judges who judge in a competition that are important because they decide the winners and not your "expertise" afterwards.

seniorita · Aug 25, 2010

Jaana said:
Oh yeah, you seem to do that... Anyway, it is the skating judges who judge in a competition that are important because they decide the winners and not your "expertise" afterwards.

if you believed that you wouldnt say like 100 times that just Plushenko was overscored. :laugh:

It was the same important judges who decided for all skaters in the same competition.

Blades of Passion · Aug 25, 2010

Look, I understand it's the judges (filtered through the rules of the judging system) who ultimately decide the outcomes of competitions and nothing short of a massive scandal, a la 2002 pairs competition, will change those outcomes. That doesn't mean the judges are correct.

We must always think for ourselves. I see no point in acknowledging something as true or accurate when it's not. Question your government, don't blindly follow it.

Kitt · Aug 25, 2010

"And last of all, judges are negatively influenced by a whole list of factors that they frequently succumb to, which further damages the credibility of their scores. " (Blades of Passion)

I agree with Blades on this one. I actually knew a judge who would not judge a competitor BECAUSE SHE WAS WEARING WHITE. That's right, he could not be bothered looking at her lines against the white ice!

prettykeys · Aug 25, 2010

kitt said:
"and last of all, judges are negatively influenced by a whole list of factors that they frequently succumb to, which further damages the credibility of their scores. " (blades of passion)

i agree with blades on this one. I actually knew a judge who would not judge a competitor because she was wearing white. That's right, he could not be bothered looking at her lines against the white ice!

lol

Then maybe Evan's colour shoulda been white instead of black. HEHEHEH j/k!! :biggrin:

Jaana · Aug 25, 2010

Jaana said:
Anyway, it is the skating judges who judge in a competition that are important because they decide the winners and not your "expertise" afterwards.

seniorita said:
if you believed that you wouldnt say like 100 times that just Plushenko was overscored. It was the same important judges who decided for all skaters in the same competition.

Some language problem, perhaps? Well, I don´t have to agree with all the scores the judges give, but mostly the end result is right, I would say.

Blades of Passion · Aug 25, 2010

Jaana said:
Well, I don´t have to agree with all the scores the judges give.

Exactly.

seniorita · Aug 25, 2010

Jaana said:
Some language problem, perhaps? Well, I don´t have to agree with all the scores the judges give, but mostly the end result is right, I would say.

that was what I was commenting at, it seems we agree with the judges only when we like the outcome...

Tonichelle · Aug 25, 2010

seniorita said:
that was what I was commenting at, it seems we agree with the judges only when we like the outcome...

omg you mean fans are subjective too???!??!? for shame. Ban them all from watching.

Johnny Weir article...o dear o dear

janetfan

Match Penalty

Kitt

ImaginaryPogue

Olympia

Bluebonnet

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Jaana

Mathman

ImaginaryPogue

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Mathman

Jaana

seniorita

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Kitt

prettykeys

Jaana

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

seniorita

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

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